We analyse Eden Park's strategy with Bastien Borget (Storytelling, CRM, etc.)

[00:00.0]Hi Bastien, how are you? Hi Joseph, I’m good and you? Well yeah super, thank you very much for accepting the invitation. It’s very cool, your studio is beautiful. Thanks, thanks. It’s cool. Listen, we’re going to be able to talk about a lot of things today, a lot of e-commerce obviously, but also CRO, customer experience, strategy around storytelling and so on, so delighted to start this episode together.[00:23.0]Maybe just before, if you want, I’ll let you introduce yourself. Yeah. Bastien Borget. I’m going to do you a little quick tour of who I am. Basically, I’m a top-level athlete, I think we’ve never talked about it. No, I didn’t know. I was a top-level athlete from my 10 years to my 18 years in motorsport.[00:39.7]I really wanted to be a Formula 1 driver. So I drove with all those you see today on TV. Yeah? Yes. But I wasn’t good enough. So at 18, I took a pretty big wall in the head telling myself it’s going to be necessary that you stop driving, you have to go home, you have to do something else.[00:57.5]So I was lucky that my parents had at least forced me to have an STG baccalaureate. So I had my baccalaureate in my pocket, I had nothing else and I had to do something of my professional life. and I had a sponsor who was making my website. And so he told me, listen Bastien, you’re not driving anymore, it’s not serious, but come to us and we put all the tools at your disposal, you do what you want.[01:19.8]And there I had fun making HTML sites at the beginning with CSS, after that it was Prestashop, Shopify. And during one or two years, I learned all of that. In my bedroom, until very late in the evening, and I started to make websites. I took a passion for that. And then, step by step, without really actually proving myself in companies, I had the luck one day to meet the former director, not founder, but director at the beginning of Vente Privée.[01:50.4]And so, on a launch project, on a second-hand project. Second-hand, so you see, it’s wardrobe clear-out at the time. We talk about that in I think we were in 2012, so very pioneering. And it was Mickaël Benabou, so founder of Vipi, who was a bit business angel of that.[02:07.8]And a bit by chance, they told me, well, we need to make a site, can you make us an e-com site? So there, I started to make their first e-com site and that put me a bit the hand to the stirrup, the foot to the stirrup by telling myself, well there you go, do sites. So there, I really had my first experiences of online sales. I did three years in that company and following that, I left to go to Merci.[02:27.2]I don’t know if you know Merci. Merci, it’s a Parisian concept store. The name rings a bell, but if you want. It’s a very beautiful Parisian concept store. It’s from the Gérard Darrel group. And so there, during three, four years, I again really cut my teeth, let’s say, on e-commerce. And there, I really took a dimension a bit more important until arriving at Eden Park four years ago, for which I occupy today the position of digital director.[02:49.8]Hyper interesting. And precisely Eden Park, can you talk to us about it in two words, if there are some who do not yet know the brand? Eden Park, it’s a brand of textiles for men. We are on a premium segment, even we are heading towards the high-end. It’s a brand that mainly sells quality product, it’s important to say it.[03:10.3]Our competitors, we know them, it’s Ralph Lauren, Lacoste. We would like in any case to be their real competitor. We are much smaller than them. But there you go, we have a real positive point, it’s that we are really ultra qualitative in our product. We tell a true story. And I find that this brand, it is beautiful and it deserves even more than what it has today.[03:28.7]Because Eden Park, at the base, it was a rugby player, that’s it? Yeah, well… Even at the start, they were five rugby players. OK. So from Racing, I don’t know if you know a bit rugby. In Paris, yeah. Yeah, exactly. The story is quite funny, I tell you briefly. They were five, they were all messing around together.[03:46.0]On the field, apparently, they were getting a bit bored. They said to themselves, well, we’re going to try to add a bit of… a bit of complexity. We’re going to arrive on the field with bow ties or berets, etc. Maybe to annoy the opponent even more, I don’t know. Anyway, they went all the way to the final of the French Championship at the Parc des Princes stadium.[04:06.6]With the bow tie. Well, they lost the match, but on the other hand the press latched onto that. It’s great, what is this logo, what is this, etc. So, my CEO, still in place, Franck Mesnel. And so, Eric Blanc, you maybe see on the TV panels of L’Équipe. He then, so, went afterwards to the Rugby World Cup, so in the stadium of…[04:30.2]It was in New Zealand, which is called Eden Park, it’s the stadium of New Zealand. He does the final, he loses it again, unfortunately, but he comes back to Paris with a bow-tie logo, Eden Park the name, and what did they do every day on the field? They were tearing rugby jerseys, they said to themselves, this time we are not going to tear them but we are going to make the first men’s fashion brand with rugby jersey.[04:52.3]And that’s where they simply started to make rugby jerseys, to integrate them into fashion. And today, that makes 35 years that they exist, even more, and they have a nice network in France and a little bit internationally. Super, I love the story. And so, I suggest now that we move to a little true false.[05:09.6]You were talking about it just now when you were saying that you were a premium brand, you tended to compare yourselves to Lacoste, Réal Florène, etc. According to you, does premium sell better online or in store? Do I have to say yes or no? You can detail a little bit.[05:26.4]Statistically, no. At Eden Park. When you take the figures with a very macro vision, no. The split, we sell almost more online than in store. Nevertheless, when you go into the micro and you go a bit more in depth, yes, we sell better in store, the strong pieces, the pieces with a lot of value and we sell stronger outside of sales in store than online.[05:51.9]So there you go, the figures are a bit different depending on the way you analyse it. Yeah, I understand. Interesting but logical at the same time. You were talking about promotions, do you think that rather premium consumers, they are sensitive to promotions or they don’t care?[06:10.8]Yes. We are not in high-end luxury. We are still in premium. So they are sensitive. On the other hand, we are lucky to have customers who are perhaps less on the lookout for good deals than mid-range or low-end. So there will always be opportunists.[06:27.7]On the other hand, the advantage that we have, it’s that our really premium customer, he is going to look a bit less at the price during new collection period and still treat himself on a new collection and not necessarily wait for promotion periods. So yes, they are sensitive to it, but a bit less and the more you go up in range, the less you are. Very clear.[06:45.2]According to you, is storytelling as important as the product for a brand like Eden Park? For Eden Park, yes. For Eden Park, clearly. But even today, I think that for many brands, it is the case. I would say that today, I would almost put it at the same level.[07:03.8]In 2025, because the image and the story that you tell has become almost as important as your final product. Today, you could almost tell a great story, sell a lot of products for 3–4 months, even if your product, it is rubbish in itself. On the other hand, on the continuation of your brand, at some point, it will show and your product is not at the level and your brand will fall.[07:26.1]But at the beginning, you can do a bit of artifice of all that. If you also have a product that is super high quality, there you will last, it’s what makes today that Eden Park they are 35–37 years old, we will talk about it but they don’t have loyalty problems for 37 years, yet they have people who are super loyal behind, who love the brand because we have never lied to them.[07:43.9]They have polos that they have had for 20 years in their wardrobe. There you go, so they have a great story and a great product. And it’s true that today, there are so few barriers to entry, finally, that storytelling is the brand, in fact, that is to say a bit the ultimate moat today.[08:00.2]Yes, of course, I agree. And precisely, speaking a little bit about retention quickly, would you say that a CRM, according to you, is more strategic than a paid media campaign? It depends on your final objective. Today, you want to do acquisition, really make your brand grow, make revenue grow, acquire new customers.[08:21.5]CRM is maybe not the most strategic point on which you need to push. On the other hand, once today, it is even many stakes, I think that in 2025 for companies, it’s that, it’s retention, increasing your EBITDA, making margin. Clearly, yes, today, the strategic stake of CRM, it is almost essential for all companies.[08:38.8]We can no longer allow ourselves to drop money like that to Meta, to Google, to be ultra dependent on it and behind not benefit from our customer file, not make them loyal and do retention. So at Eden Park, I would say that today, for me, and that, it’s been two years that we understood it, CRM has become more strategic than acquisition.[09:02.0]It really depends on the stage of maturity of the company. At the very beginning, you are going to do acquisition in all directions. You must not neglect the two. But if there is a choice to make, maybe you do acquisition and then after one year, once you have invested a lot of money, maybe you calm down a bit and you start to tell yourself I do retention and normally, the balance will even out.[09:20.4]Today, we managed to make it pass to the other side, we are happy. And especially that it is true that we tend to forget it and to oppose a little bit acquisition to retention, but it is true that if you have good retention, you can allow yourself to be perhaps a bit more aggressive also on the acquisition side. Obviously, because I agree with you, the balance before it is going to reverse and doing good retention will allow you to do different things in acquisition and to go and get another audience and therefore to be even more necessarily fine tuning and to be more profitable behind.[09:53.7]Does e-commerce allow to reach a younger customer base than in retail? It’s not easy questions. Yes, at Eden Park, yes, because it’s the… It’s the current trend, unfortunately. Young people move much less than they used to to shops.[10:10.2]There are phones non-stop, they are on them. We must adapt and we must make the brand available to them at that level. And inevitably, the first relay, it’s e-commerce. They are used to it, I am 36 years old, I don’t know how old [10:30.4]They still do it, but now there are still about 80% who will favour access to the Internet. Buying on the Internet, making the return, it has become super easy. Inevitably, that allows us… The customer file of e-commerce and of the physical company, it is younger for me than a store.[10:45.7]Yeah, clearly. And speaking a little bit about new trends and changes in consumption modes, according to you, will AI replace part of e-commerce jobs in the next five years? In ethics, I don’t really want to. So already, it is starting to replace it.[11:04.5]So not to replace it. I am very afraid that it will replace it in quite a lot of sectors. Me, I have very big hope to tell myself that it is going to come to change our way of working, but without removing too many positions either.[11:21.6]But I think it is undeniable. Unfortunately, we already see it today on writing product sheets, on translations. There, it has taken the place. I think that translators who are not in great shape, it is starting to attack photos. It is starting to attack now artificial intelligence at the level of your data and therefore to forecast a bit your sales.[11:42.7]I hope that it is not going to replace all jobs, but I hope that it is going to be a very good complementary tool to help us make decisive choices and to be much more productive and to be able to focus on much more important stakes than writing or translation.[11:58.7]Omni-channel is indispensable for a premium brand today. Obviously, but we are not omni-channel. So it’s hard to say yes. For me, it is one of the stakes of the years 2020.[12:14.8]We are even, normally, any company at level should be omni-channel since 2022. So there, to say that we are not there and that we want to go there, for me, it is already almost a swear word. I think that the next step, it’s unified commerce. That’s what we will talk about after. Today, you owe it to yourself to be omni-channel.[12:30.8]The customer, he no longer wants to know where the product is, why he cannot have it at that moment, why he does not have a unique customer file and loyalty whether he is in store or in e-commerce. He doesn’t care. He just goes to Eden Park. He buys a product and it seems normal that he finds his order online, that he has accumulated his loyalty points here and that in addition, he can potentially make a purchase in store and send it on e-commerce.[12:54.2]And I think that it is essential. Clearly. And maybe obviously, the question is burning my lips a little bit. So, what difference do you make, you, between unified commerce and omni-channel? So, I think that there are quite a few who must be asking the question. So, unified commerce, for me, it is even further than omni-channelity. Omni-channelity, it’s all the bricks that we have been hearing about for years.[13:12.1]Store to web, e-reservation, I get delivered in store, the relay point, store, etc. It’s really the big bricks that we have been hearing about for 5–6 years. For me, unified commerce, it comes to extend even more on customer knowledge, then the data behind.[13:31.8]We will have all these bricks that will allow us to have a unified stock. Where is my stock at time T? Where is it, wherever it is? I need to respond to a customer expectation. Maybe it’s the store, I am in Paris, it’s the store of Périgueux that is going to send the order.[13:48.8]For me, the stock is unified with everyone. It goes further, today, we have defranchised and we put at their disposal a B2B stock access, that is to say that they buy once from us, during a showroom and then after they need to restock.[14:04.4]Same thing, the stock must be unified, it is commerce, everyone can go and tap into it, he buys it, he takes it first, who sold, first served. So that is the base and then on the customer the same, it’s a unique customer reference. So you arrive in store, I find your file, even if you are an e-commerce customer, it’s unified, it goes back into your CRM, we are going to send a whole different strata depending on the journey that you have made.[14:30.0]And then, the last step, it’s the data. That is to say that you aggregate everything in a single database. You stop having a physical data, an e-commerce data. Everything is unified in the same place. That gives you a very good micro or macro vision of your company and you take decisions and you move forward very quickly. I really think that we are in the stage…[14:48.3]This stage becomes essential. There are lots of companies that have done it. Well, lots of companies. There are many companies that have managed to do it and I think that they have been very pioneering on that. Now, we really have to go there. Interesting, we will come back to it just after. Are marketplaces a mandatory passage for all brands?[15:07.7]No, we are not on marketplaces. We are not present on marketplaces. So no, it’s my opinion. And me, I am even almost not anti-marketplace. For a brand that has managed to create such a beautiful story, to have such a beautiful network of multi-brands, of franchisees with whom they have trusted them for 35 years, today to tell them I am going to sell my brand, well I am going to give my brand to a marketplace that is going to take a nice percentage from me and in addition I am no longer going to manage my final selling price.[15:38.4]You could do it if you do a different service but for us it would rather be to undress the marvel that we have today and to say well ok well do me a sale on your traditional network on the other hand sell on the marketplace. Me, I think that we are not obliged and that today, everything depends on what you are looking for.[15:55.9]Are you looking at all costs to make revenue or do you really want to go and see the finality and tell yourself that you are profitable, you make EBITDA and you generate margin. Yeah, clearly. Knowing that after, at the start, you can have a go-to-market on marketplaces to benefit from traffic, but that in the long term, indeed, there is a risk of cannibalisation.[16:13.7]In the long term, in fact we are very afraid of, at the moment when you have put your fingers in it, you are going to do it for a year, you are going to see that they bring you traffic, that you have revenue coming, so there what do you do? You staff a bit more, you put costs in front, and then the day when they tell you well yes but it’s even more commission, it’s even more this, well you have become dependent, your e-commerce has gone down, on the other hand they have increased, even your margin at the end it has dropped by 20%, that’s not bad, you know.[16:39.1]Yeah, clearly. Especially in a context where you have franchisees as well. How many franchisees do you have to get an idea? Today, it is growing this network. I think we are at 32 franchised stores. And it is true that it is an important point what you say, it’s that we have always been in respect.[16:58.6]But that, it’s the values of Eden Park, it’s the values of my CEO and of my commercial director today. We respect the people with whom we work and just like we respect the final customer, we do not lie to them. When we have an infranchised opening, we pay attention to all the stores that are around. Are they not too close to each other? Otherwise, we refuse.[17:14.7]Even the department stores, we pay attention to where we are at the level of department stores. And it’s what makes that today, there is a trust that is created with them and that we play the game. But the same on the commercial policy, because me I am on that. The commercial policy, there is only one group one.[17:32.4]The stores, they trade, it’s the same. I do not have the right to do more promotions than that. We respect the product, we respect the commercial policy. They, if they want to do it, they do it. If they decide that they have sold well enough and that they do not want to do it, they do not do it. But there you go, we will never do a period of…[17:49.3]…of big clearance for two weeks at minus 50 on the site, that does not exist. It’s like in rugby finally, it’s really a gentleman’s sport. Exactly, that’s true. It’s a vision of seeing things, but it’s been four years that I am at Eden and I maybe did not have this vision when arriving, but these true values of respect, they are really present here and you can do a great business while really being in respect.[18:14.7]Clearly. Social networks have become the number one purchase channel for young generations. But yes, if you see the future, but it even scares a lot because it even scares me, my job in itself. We talk about storytelling, we talk about brand.[18:32.7]Today, to transcribe a storytelling image on an e-commerce, it is already not easy and it requires resources, content production, etc. Me, I am very afraid that tomorrow, a TikTok shop or that there is even an OpenAI replaces my e-commerce site and that we all end up on TikTok Shop with the Eden Park shop, the Lacoste shop that does not necessarily have a lot of storytelling but just buy the product.[18:55.6]That, that can worry me in the long term and it’s us, in digital and in e-commerce, we must make sure to still have this perception a bit of the brand and of the identity and we must fight for that because otherwise, in 3–4 years, on the other hand, our job, it can really disappear.[19:12.1]That, we will come back to it, obviously. Will second-hand become unavoidable in fashion? I do not know how to answer this question. I do not know because me it’s been a very long time that I am in second-hand since 2012 then, it’s my first second-hand experience.[19:30.6]There have been lots lots of different stages, today the crowleader it’s Vinted. The way in which it has been done it’s not at all the one that I imagined a few years ago. Very collaborative or high. A lot of brands today make second-hand sites to try to sell second-hand product.[19:49.7]It’s good, it’s ethical, it’s cool, it’s not very profitable, it’s not there that we make revenue. So I find that image-wise it’s rather good, on the other hand at the level really profitability, etc. And even at ethical level, at a moment you send back shipping costs and all, I don’t know. So me I am a bit in restraint on that.[20:08.9]I find that the scheme that Eden Park has done is quite intelligent. We do not really do a second-hand site, on the other hand we do upcycling, that is to say that we take back old products that came back to stock a bit damaged and we have Marie in our team who just comes to customise these products, she makes great pieces.[20:26.8]We do 5–6 sales per year, not all at once. I think it’s more towards that that we want to tend with Eden Park. Interesting, yes. Upcycling, it’s true that I do not know to what extent it is such a widespread practice.[20:55.3]Some brands have done it, beautiful brands have done it, who can allow themselves to do it because here as well, we only do 6 sales per year, the salary of one person, it’s image, it’s clear.[21:11.6]If I have to choose in terms of image, I prefer a very beautiful image, and that is the CEO who decided, he was right Franck, I want a very beautiful image of my products in upcycling rather than a kind of reinvented vintage with a not great photo. It’s not that image there that I want to give to my products even if it’s second-hand.[21:33.2]Very interesting as a point of view. Customer reviews influence more than advertising? It depends at what tunnel of brand knowledge you are. The very first step where you are really going to make your brand discover to a new profile or other, I think that advertising is essential.[21:52.1]It’s the first lever. You need to make him adhere to your story, to your product, etc. On the other hand, when you arrive in the bottom of funnel at the level of conversion, there it’s the customer review that takes over and inevitably we have all done it. We are going to go see the customer review and we are not going to look at the 5 stars, we are going to go see the 1 star and we are all going to read them and we are going to take a decision.[22:07.9]Clearly. E-commerce is the most stimulating job in digital today? Ending with questions maybe a bit easier. Well yes, otherwise I wouldn’t work in e-commerce.[22:23.1]The loyalty and referral programme is already a real repurchase lever? At Eden Park? You, you don’t have one, I know. At Eden Park, we don’t have one. And it’s the next brick that we want to put in place. By the way, yes, I think that there is no secret.[22:38.6]We do not yet work together and we really want in the future to work together. And I told you, fortunately, we are going to work together. There is just a project that is in the process of aligning. But at Eden Park, we do not do it. It’s historical also. And it’s historical and it’s often linked in relation to technical problems.[22:54.9]It’s not that the company cannot do it, but it’s that today, we do not have omni-channelity, we are not unified. And that blocks us, we do not develop. There, we are at crossing of paths to deliver a new project between physical and e-commerce, which will allow us finally to be unified and to put that in place.[23:18.8]The figures, we do not know what that is going to give, everyone says it’s 5% of growth, 10% of growth more. Me, I want to believe in it because we have a brand and we have fans of the brand. And today, we have never been able to offer them a little bottle. and just tell them, there you go, come to the store, your next tier it will be to have a bottle and your next tier it will be to have a free polo, the guy he will come and we will make additional revenue.[23:37.9]So me I believe in it, I am convinced of it, it just needs that there the planets align and that we manage to launch it. Very good. Well listen, eager to see all that rise in any case. So that’s the end of the true false, now we can move a little bit to the e-commerce strategy then. Obviously, you talked about it in introduction, there is still a brand DNA that is very very strong.[23:53.7]So my first question in an e-commerce context, it’s how do you manage to transcribe this DNA through a web page finally? That is not easy. And it is even one of the points that has been the most complicated for me historically.[24:09.8]I am more in data, in techno, than in the final image. And finding the right cursor between the good image, but which is going to convert behind, it’s not easy. And it’s often the debate that you see on very big sites of big brands, where it’s the textile art director who has made the website.[24:29.2]Yeah, it’s pretty, it’s super stylish of the brand, but on the other hand it doesn’t convert. So, we respected the codes of the brand, whether it’s colour codes, whether it’s specific codes that they had established. It’s the first thing, we did that. And then, the best way according to us today to transcribe that, it’s the visual that you want to put inside.[24:53.9]I do not find today another way to do than the very beautiful entry video, to put as much as possible content, let’s say ambient shooting a bit, or ambient video in the category pages, and then in the product page. While also allowing in the product page to make specific blogs to tell the story of the brand, make specific pages to tell the story of the brand.[25:16.2]I am maybe not the best guest to answer that, but it’s me what I considered the best compromise between selling and not coming to deteriorate the image of the brand. It’s hyper difficult to find like balance. It’s very difficult, but at Eden Park, I am very happy that we have found a very good complexity.[25:34.6]Complementarity with the marketing service where, at a moment, I told them, guys, I leave you the home page. Me, clearly, in the analyses that I do, my customer, he looks at the first banner, he goes down a bit, then after that, there are only 10% who will see what happens at the bottom of the page.[25:52.2]So, just at the top, don’t make me something lunar, that’s all. And there, they really added an atmosphere of the brand. And there, the site, it is really very good at the level of the Home and they did a very, very good job on that. Too good. We might maybe put a little integration on the video. I hope that the Home will be beautiful that day.[26:10.1]And so, if we look a little bit at the history, you see, from the moment, so four years ago, you arrived at Eden Park to take the e-commerce part. What was a little bit your big projects beyond the matching between the DNA and then the site? There were very important technical stakes.[26:27.5]You were on what when you arrived? We were on Magento. Magento 2. The redesign had just been finished. I think that I recovered a Magento 2 redesign that was six months old. That cost money. Because historically, these redesigns cost a lot of money.[26:52.4]But it was not stable. Magento is a good product, but you need a very good agency and very good knowledge to make a very good product. We put it in the bin and we went through an episode on Shopify. That was my first subject to say to myself, I cannot spend my day managing problems and spend my day managing a team that manages problems.[27:11.8]For me, it was not conceivable. There was no smile, there was no desire. It was the case. So there you go, we just put that in the bin and we did what I love to do, it’s a very good technical base. There you go, you have your good bases to work.[27:30.3]Just, you arrive in the morning, you press on a button, almost everything is done. No but it’s true, almost everything is done as fast as possible. And after, you take your time, you take distance and you look at everything that you can improve on your site, everything that you can do more to go and get revenue, sales.[27:48.5]There you go, so our first stake, it was to put in place a tool that works. So that, in 3–4 months, we put in place Shopify.[28:04.7]And then after, over all the duration, it was to find the right combination between what are we going to do to respect the brand, but what are we going to do to go and acquire customer. Because I arrived at Eden Park, the revenue, in e-commerce, it was maybe divided by three compared to today.[28:21.5]And we did not have acquisition, we did not even use Meta, we did not even use Instagram. So it was to find these levers, but while still respecting the brand. And very quickly, we went on Meta, on Google Ads, etc. And there, the growth happened in a fairly strong way.[28:37.3]And we came to do a tuning with a great Colissimo experience, then the CRM, all these things there which came to fit together progressively. Yeah, my job, it was almost to do mainly tech, but it has become for me today the ultra-essential.[28:57.6]Yeah, 100%. Yeah, so today, the distribution finally in the sales of Eden Park, so you have 32 franchises, maybe some own stores also. Then, so you have the e-commerce part, maybe wholesale. Can you do us a little breakdown of how it is distributed?[29:16.5]So, historically we are wholesale sellers, it’s our big job, we have a great multi-brand network, 350 or 400 points of sale, I don’t know anymore, it’s huge. And then it’s the main job of Eden Park, it’s to sell polo to a B2B at the base.[29:34.9]So the figure, I’m going to give you ranges because the figures have varied a bit these last times, we must be between 30–40% of wholesale. But in fact this wholesale it is a bit complicated to understand because me I am B2B customer of Eden Park.[29:52.1]So I am a bit in wholesale also, you see what I mean? I am a bit linked with them. So that, and after indeed, we have department stores which are themselves wholesale customers, but I think that we have about 60 department stores, Galeries Lafayette, Printemps.[30:12.0]After we have 32 franchisees and 30 own stores, then the e-commerce.[30:33.6]Clearly, we are going to say that you are at… Come on… between 15 and 20 of each part, but since there is the wholesale part which comes on the side, it does not make a complete 100, it makes a 120 or everything, but once consolidated, it makes a 100.[30:52.1]So there you go, we are more or less all, really you take franchise, own stores, department stores and e-commerce, we are more or less all at the same level. OK. Around 20% of the revenue. Too good, too good. And maybe, I want that we come back to the adaptation maybe a bit concrete of the DNA with the e-commerce site then.[31:09.9]You were saying that sometimes you had very beautiful sites, but we know well that often beautiful sites unfortunately do not convert maybe as much as a site a bit more functional and straight to the point. What experiments were you able to lead to precisely make yourself convictions on the balance to find between beauty, creativity and performance?[31:25.2]There is something that speaks at the end, it’s the number. The finality it’s the number and the analyses and testing and proving by A plus B that it works or not. All while having, indeed, a super flying element which was my CEO who told me “well it’s good, I imagine it, I imagine it, I imagine it”.[31:43.3]At a moment, it was a bit hot where we did not agree on that. And at a moment, I said “no but you’re stupid, it’s him the boss and it’s him who has the vision”. And at a moment, yes, you have to let go and you have to see things. So we tested what he told us.[32:01.2]And on, I think, 100% of the ideas that they gave us, I think that there are 60 that we finally kept, by testing, by seeing, by telling ourselves, yes, there it maybe clicks a bit less at instant T, but finally, it also goes through that path. It comes back here. Finally, at the end, my conversion rate, it is good.[32:27.9]And over the duration, I sell a bit more at ticket price than on sale. So yeah, I maybe did not have this vision, but him, he has it and I do not take everything. Because there are things, it’s catastrophic, but there are 60% which is rather correct. That, clearly, you can no longer do it at random now.[32:45.9]Especially when you do about 18, between 15 and 20 million of revenue. You have the chance to have a big traffic, you A/B test it, you validate it and behind you deliver it. Do you have an example of a UI, UX, CRO optimisation which was a bit game changer?[33:03.0]Yes, so it is not necessarily the example that I was with my CEO, but us, the big project, well not the big project, but the big evolution that we had this year or last year, it was the change of the menu at Eden Park. To arbitrate product positions, category positions, the way that it is hover or on click, the image that you are going to put on the right, all these things there.[33:29.4]All these things there, it’s crazy, will have an incidence on the final product that you are going to sell and on your conversion rate. Clearly, I think that today, you have a site e-commerce that works on your menu, your search on your menu, it’s 70% of your visitors who pass through there.[33:46.7]You have Homepage, sometimes, they do not give a damn, but that, it’s 70%. So that, that was the huge evolution that made us gain quite a lot of points over the last years. And maybe, still in the same register, a more surprising one, you see, which is a bit counter-intuitive, I don’t know if you have an example in mind.[34:06.9]Yes, so I have not yet delivered it because I absolutely do not believe in it. Well, it’s not that I do not believe in it. No, but in fact, the numbers speak and there, we are in the process of finalising it and they are going to be right and it hurts me. It’s true.[34:23.4]And that, yet, they had told me. Well, they had not told me, but since then, I think that you have seen it arrive on e-commerce sites, more and more, you add a product to the basket, then you have a little basket, a drawer that comes, that tells you here is your basket.[34:39.4]Then after you have validate or validate your purchase, continue your purchase. The global basket page no longer exists and Shopify wants to go towards that, it wants to go straight to checkout.[34:54.8]There, they proved to me by A plus B that you can keep your drawer if you want, your basket. On the other hand, you are no longer going to put go to payment, you are going to put go to basket. You arrive on an additional page where you have all your basket recap.[35:11.2]But you are going to convert more, you are going to make bigger average baskets and you are going to have more revenue. It’s great. For me, I had always been told, go to the simplest and go to the click as fast as possible.[35:28.4]And there, the fact of having a recap page for the customer, you do not tell him consciously validate and pay, you tell him see my basket. OK, I pause, here are all the products that I have.[35:44.5]Well, finally, I can maybe add that with a good cross-sell at the bottom. You make more revenue and you increase your average basket. Very interesting that. I think that we all have in mind, the fewer steps there are, the more conversions there are, but in fact not so much.[34:39.4]Clearly, and that’s why we take agencies, that’s why we take experts. Them, they are there a bit to constrain us and tell us, there you go, this is what we see a bit in the market, this is what needs to be tested. And then after, they do an A-B test and clearly, it’s the A-B test that wins. Clearly, yes.[34:54.8]It’s interesting. And if we go back up a little bit towards the top of the funnel, it’s true that the market today of fashion, it’s quite competitive, very challenging, I think. For everyone, whether we are a brand that is starting, a more established brand.[35:11.2]According to you, what are a bit the best channels for Eden Park, today in any case, on acquisition? Clearly on acquisition, Meta and Google. Meta, Google, YouTube. I have to name three. For me, they are the best. At Eden Park.[35:28.4]At Eden Park, with brand constraints and constraints of “we want to respect our identity”. It is completely different in another brand where you can do influence, where you can give your product, give it to people and make a community, etc. It does not say that we have not reached that level yet.[35:44.5]Maybe that we are… Because we want to protect our brand, we do not want that a young influencer speaks about our brand. Not me who does not want, it’s my CEO, he is 60 years old, I am not going to say his age, he is a certain age, Franck, he sees all that, but him he wants that we speak well about his brand, he prefers to take the word himself or other, or to make very beautiful visuals, he does not necessarily want that there are lots of influencers who say Eden Park, the brand with the blue bow tie, no no, it’s the pink bow tie us guys.[36:11.3]So he wants to calculate all that well, today at Eden Park, Meta, YouTube, Google, it’s our real acquisition levers. So we pay for the three then? Yes, we pay for the three and then you have SEO also Google. Today, I almost do not talk about SEO anymore because for me it is part of my technical bases.[36:33.4]You have an annual budget, you need to adjust it. But for me, it is always there. And it’s my life foundations, in fact, of my site. I need to have SEO, I need to be present on my keywords that work, on what I sell and on what I am legitimate on, what I want to develop on.[36:48.8]It’s essential so that your balance, at a moment, it does much less SEA, that you have done a lot of SEA spend on, I don’t know, yellow T-shirt. OK, guys in SEA, you worked yellow T-shirt. You go up SEA, you go down behind. But after, the best acquisition, I think that it’s Meta YouTube, it’s a very very good combo for the really first funnel that the customer does not know.[37:12.4]OK, very broad. Precisely, SEO, let’s talk about it, with LLMs, have you observed a drop in traffic, a drop in the increase of conversion? What are the first signals on that?[37:31.3]We did not see big changes. On the other hand, we saw that there was traffic that came from OpenAI, that came a bit right and left. But at certain periods, that reversed because there were major changes anyway over the last six months. At the beginning, they were very visible. After, they stopped doing it. I think that it’s not yet well run in, very clean at that level.[37:50.0]I have no problem saying that we are maybe not yet at the level… We have not taken the train while running yet straight away, but clearly we would like to take it in 2026. But for me, it’s still a bit…[38:08.0]It’s not yet well fixed, we do not know what the conditions are and the game behind, I do not yet manage to understand it. Shopify is in the process of melting with OpenAI, it’s a real stake, so I do not want to miss that train, but I have… there you go, me I am tendency, I am not a big charger who goes and then thinks after, I am more in observation, I look at what happens and I take the decision.[38:27.9]So I wait a very little bit in front of the results, but I think that in 2026 we are going to start to go and change a bit that. After it’s true that you, compared to your type of customer, maybe they search more naturally, you see. There also, it’s the advantage that we have, us, in itself, it’s that our customer base, it does not have 15–30 years and is hyper connected to that.[38:45.4]It has more 30–65 years who, for now, are just in the process of correcting emails and of asking a question if they have a button on the face. I do not think that they are there yet. Where is the perfect jumper for Jean-Pierre at Christmas?[39:00.5]That’s clear.[39:04.4]Can you explain to us a little bit, well there I think that it’s a little bit quite common finally, but you on your side, how do you measure a bit all that? You say that you are quite data, techno, analytics. Can you explain to us a little bit, according to Bastien Borget, how you manage the e-commerce BU in terms of ROI and all that?[39:28.6]It’s, I think that the answer maybe will please no one or other, but it’s not easy and I don’t have a magic formula. And I don’t know if people have the magic formula and real tools that are really capable of attributing the real sale, to which lever, at which moment, etc. I don’t know any.[39:45.1]We tried to sell me some and I find that it’s not… We are not in reality. The only thing that I found and that allowed me to satisfy myself with my results and to tell myself yes, it really works, it’s one, to cut levers at certain moments, to see what I lose, not strong periods, to see what I lose, to reactivate them for a certain period and to see the result behind.[40:11.2]It’s the first thing. That, there, it gives an image to say, yeah, I did that, I cut affiliation, but I put it back behind, etc. Yes, here are the real figures. First thing. And then, I am also convinced that Meta does not work without Google, does not work without my CRM behind.[40:31.2]It’s really a marketing mix that is going to make that the finality, I have a great thing. And it’s this alignment of marketing mix that is going to make things. So, I don’t have tools, I don’t find them. There is still a bit of… There is data, obviously. We see the data, we see the traffic that comes in, we see the last click, we see all that.[40:48.2]We have it on a great cartography and after there is a bit of… of feeling and sensation in relation to that. I am connected H24 to my revenue thanks to Shopify. I see the hours. I know that when it arrives late in the evening, it’s more Facebook than something else.[41:04.0]I have a bit these indicators there, but it’s mainly feeling than a tool that really tells me. But if someone has a great tool, I rarely answer on LinkedIn, but tell me, I have a great tool. But really a great tool, I am quite interested.[41:20.4]It’s going to happen to you some… And it was interesting, you were saying indeed, when you cut a channel, you see straight away, after a certain time, the distribution.[41:37.0]You evaluate that over what period of time? Clearly, it depends on the span that you do. The spend on Facebook and Google, we have still fallen on big spends. Today, I cut it one week, I cut myself an arm.[41:55.9]So it depends on your volume of business. The smaller you are, the longer your test will be a bit. Me, today, it’s no secret to say that Eden Park makes potentially between 100 and 200 thousand euros per week minimum over the year. I cut Google during a thing, I maybe have 50 thousand that will not be there at the end.[42:13.4]I can feel it in an immediate way. OK. Interesting. So the more volume you have, the more you can draw conclusions. There you go. Same thing, the more you forget to send a newsletter on Tuesday, your sanction, it is immediate. Wednesday, Thursday, it suffers. Yeah, OK. It’s immediate.[42:34.8]Today, clearly, us, we cut them during one week on intelligent periods. We did not put that on sales. And very quickly, we told ourselves, yeah, there, I have a reactive incidence very fast. And sometimes even, it happens to you to do tests without wanting to.[42:52.1]Your company credit card has reached the limit, you arrived at Eden, arrived at the spending limit. The guy he is on holiday, there is nothing, for three days me I sweat but I don’t know what is happening. Well yeah, my revenue I see it straight away. There you can allow yourself that, so you do not choose your periods but normally by cutting it you can realise the results quite quickly.[43:14.7]You had not put the AMEX on the BMx? We solved the problem now, everything is fine. OK, so we talked a little bit about the entry of funnel, also about conversion. And now, once the person buys, what happens after that?[43:35.9]It’s a little bit then the few questions that I have left. How, you, in a general way, you work the post-purchase experience at Eden Park today?[43:55.0]There also, we have an axis of progression, but we mainly made it pass… There are two axes that we have still improved these last years. The first, it’s at the level of CRM and marketing automation. After, I am going to say things a bit basic, but the customer has ordered.[44:11.8]We thank him, we accompany him in all his campaign of delivery of products. We really want to reassure him 100%. Where is my product? Has it arrived? Thank you for your order. Thank you, you have received it. Potentially leave a review. There you go, that’s the basic things.[44:33.3]I think that a lot do it and it’s simple to put in place. After, we work more and more on non-commercial emails after purchase, but on a short period, that is to say that you have just bought, normally, we calculated that over the next 20 days, you are not going to buy again at Eden Park, because you have just treated yourself to a polo at 145, normally, you have a bit of waiting.[44:55.3]So there, we are going to tell you on the other hand, here is the story of the brand, if you had missed it. You bought such type of product, here is how potentially to maintain it and what you can do with it. Very commercial things. We even cut them from our commercial news segment.[45:17.4]And after, at the level of a defined timing, I will tell my company, my team, I don’t have the exact day anymore, we are going to start to send him a post-purchase. You bought that, well look, that, that could suit you. Or those who bought that, they bought that behind.[45:34.2]And there, there is repurchase. The repurchase, it is low, it is not huge, but even if it is 5% after 30 days, we are already very, very happy. There you go, that’s more or less the first step that we did.[45:56.6]I really want now, obviously, to say thank you, here is your loyalty. That, it’s the next lever which is going to arrive and which is going to be great in post-purchase in 30 days. We will say you have just reached level 2, it’s great, you have 30 euros left to go and get the bottle in store. OK, very good.[46:18.1]So that, that’s the next step that we could do. We also put in place something a bit basic, but which really had a lot of effects, it’s the delivery packaging. I don’t know if you will find it on LinkedIn, I had done a little thing. We made a cardboard that was quite innovative, where in fact when you open it, you have a bow tie embedded in the thing.[46:34.4]The box is rather beautiful. It’s a stupid thing. Well, it’s not a thing… It’s a little attention, it’s silly. Yes, the cardboard, it maybe costs me 10 cents more than my neighbour. On the volume, yes, it represents money. But… The person, OK, he has already understood that by opening his order, the product, it was going to be potentially high quality, that he was in the Eden Park universe.[46:52.1]How many brands do I receive today, and really beautiful brands, with a poor white packaging? Honestly, I tell myself, you don’t respect your product. These are little things, but at least you know from whom you ordered and you know how your product arrives.[47:09.6]It’s true that it still makes all the difference. It’s like a store, when you leave with a great bag with the thing. The bag, it cost us one euro to manufacture. But on the other hand, almost you keep it at home and you know that your product is in a beautiful thing. Yeah, like all your Apple boxes.[47:25.3]Exactly. We all have 10, well not 10, but 3 in the cupboard. We even have the iPhone 2 that is over there. OK, but the box, it is quality in fact. That’s clear, that’s clear. It’s silly but well.[47:42.1]Yeah, it’s hyper interesting. I think that we largely live it under-rated indeed. Yeah, it’s not necessarily that which is going to tell me today, I do repurchase behind. I cannot judge it, I cannot quantify it. On the other hand, how many people, whether friends or others, say that the box was good.[48:00.5]The delivery went well, I was not there, I could reschedule it, and then in addition, I arrived, the box is beautiful, and they send a photo of the box. OK. Maybe that in a month, when they will have a gift to do at Christmas, they will go to Eden Park because the box is beautiful. 100%.[48:16.4]And there is one of the levers also that you talk about quite a lot in a general way concerning post-purchase, it’s notably in fashion, we know that there are return rates which are quite high. How do you manage today the returns with our common friend?[48:34.5]That’s true, with Raphaël and Benoît from Baback. So I am the worst client for Baback. Because I have a return rate which is, I think, one of the lowest on the fashion market.[48:52.1]I am very happy, we have a return rate of 7%. And normally in fashion, it’s what, 20%? Men’s fashion, 12%, and women’s fashion, you can, women’s fashion and shoes, you can reach 25%, it’s huge. Well after in France, we have not been in Germany, if I were in Germany maybe there we would explode.[49:21.0]So we have been working with them for a very long time, I think that we were one of their first clients, and it was… and I have always, well I love Raphaël Thorbeneau, I have always been very jealous of their company because I would have liked to make the solution that they made, because it did not exist still 3–4 years ago before they launched.[49:43.7]But to make the customer autonomous for a return, I find that much sexier than putting the return label in your thing. You arrive, OK I have the return label, yeah well maybe I do it straight away, well I don’t know, me I find that, OK you go on the site, we explain to you how you have to return it, it’s simple, you have the label quickly, you can make an exchange, you can have a gift card in exchange.[50:02.7]You can even take a gift card, have a bit more amount. It’s clever what they did and it’s a very good service. Too good. But we are not a good client for, sorry guys. But yes, I think that they are quite happy with you and your returns. In any case, that’s what they told me, so we greet them anyway.[50:17.8]Do you have other channels apart from email that you use? You see, SMS, we talk a lot about WhatsApp also at the moment. So SMS, we use it but with parsimony because we find it a bit intrusive and only for big periods.[50:33.9]Launch of sales, last day of sales, opening of Christmas store, really where we want to do something great.[50:52.8]We also work, well we work, we do not work enough but we have WhatsApp with Wax. Wax, we have had it for a while, but we under-use it for a reason that I do not manage to solve today, and Omblin is in the process of relaunching campaigns at Christmas.[51:10.9]The difference between SMS and WhatsApp, it’s that SMS, the customer is used to not answering you. I send him an SMS, he knows that it’s a promotional message. WhatsApp, you tell him “Hi, here is my new collection”, or then “What do you think?”[51:29.4]The customer, what does he do? He tells you “Well yeah, it’s good, but I would like to have my red polo that I did not get last week.” So in fact, you find yourself managing customer service problems. And that, today, I have not found the solution.[51:56.4]Because I do not have the people internally and we have an external customer service which costs too much to do that, to answer the question.[52:16.9]So they tell me, I answer the questions, etc. Yeah, but the day when you send to 100,000 customers and you find yourself overloaded, it’s a bit tight. So there, we are in the process of finding solutions to make scenarios where there is no answer.[52:38.5]The first that we want to put in place as soon as we have unified, unified commerce, it’s you leave the store, simply.[52:56.1]Hi, I am the founder of Eden Park or whatever. I am very happy that you passed in my store, at Eden Park. Did it go well? Do you have advice or other? And there, we will go and do something.[53:19.3]And that, I think that I have seen several brands do it, even in post-delivery, rather than making an email.[53:19.3]“Hi, your order, it has left the warehouse. It should arrive in a few days. Here is the delivery tracking.” Basic thing, but same, it reassures the customer and it’s great. Yeah, that’s true. And we did an episode last week with Guillaume on the subject. He talked quite a lot, precisely, about this founder message.[53:44.5]Everything that we say, in fact, it’s almost… It’s emotional for the customer and it’s… Everything is false. Well, it’s not mean. Everything is not false, but it’s never Franck who is going to write a message to the final customer. But I agree for the customer and I have had it on some brands, I am happy to receive this message, I am happy to have the information and I am happy almost to believe that it’s the guy who wrote to me.[54:02.3]Yeah 100%, even if you know that it’s not really the case. You have the impression of being in a circle and then that’s the first mail but the day when you have your loyalty, you have everything, and that you say, this customer there, it’s not a random customer, it’s not a first customer, we must treat him in a certain way.[54:18.3]But there it’s a customer, he has made 5 purchases this year, he has a very good average basket, OK, well there go a bit further again in the message. Hi, it’s been 30 years that you come, can I not invite you to something, or sign up to this list and I will maybe invite you to an event.[54:33.0]You have a whole thing behind that triggers and which is great. Yeah, 100%. I think that we are really going to, you will tell me what you think, but in a much more relational, emotional logic than transactional in order precisely to differentiate a bit actually from all the solicitations.[54:51.8]That’s it. You have to stand out and that also, I agree with Franck, my founder, who has always told me, Bastien, you must not do like the others. We must always have a bit this mischievous side, this energy that Eden Park has had for years, of being a bit disruptive.[55:08.8]Well yeah, let’s be different from the others. And it’s thanks to that that we will last over time and that we will be better than the others. Very good. And so, to talk a little bit now, obviously, about the subject on which everyone is questioning currently, at the level of artificial intelligence.[55:24.4]According to you, has it really changed online personalisation? So… Not only online by the way. Yeah, not only online. There again, at an ethical level, that would bother me. But yes, we can see huge trends that can arrive.[55:40.3]The other time, we were testing something in photo shooting, it was to shoot all our photos with the head of our ambassador, who is Romain Ntamack, all the products that he wears.[55:56.1]That is the first step, there is not a lot of artificial in that, but already you take a basic mannequin, you cut the head and you put that. The second step of that is you arrive on the site, you put a photo of you, your morphology, etc.[56:02.5]All the products that are worn are worn by Joseph, with your face and the product. That, it’s a first step. It can please or not please, because sometimes, you cannot be helped with your body, but it’s a first step that is possible and which is within reach.[56:31.4]There you go, so that, it’s a first step that is there. After, on personalisation, me, I came back a little bit, because I think that we… Maybe that we do not yet make enough revenue.[56:47.0]We had a very well-known tool, I can cite it, Nosto, which does customer journey personalisation, etc.[57:04.6]I came back to it because simply, we had to unplug it for a reason and the real incidence of losing this tool was not huge. Maybe that we used it badly and that, I have no problem on that.[57:21.6]But yes, it’s interesting to have the products that you have already seen and the products that correspond a bit to your search. But to go into hyper-specialisation, I think that there, it must be…[57:45.4]Unfortunately, it is not yet human enough to really be in reality. We, when we did the test with Eden Park, and that you put around the table the people from production, the people from the art direction, etc.[58:05.8]And that they see what artificial intelligence proposes, well they have a bit… That’s not what we want to transcribe. So there you go, that will be there I think the right balance also, like we had a bit before with image and technique, but there it will be image and AI.[58:25.2]To say yes, but not at the expense of what we want to convey as information. Because if you let AI do it, your site it can look like anything and not necessarily be in the final identity that you want.[58:44.4]Yeah, hyper interesting as a point of view for once. And so if we project ourselves a bit, what is your vision finally for Eden Park in the next years?[59:03.1]You talked a bit about the projects that you would like to lead in the next months. Are there others or not? I think that we have a unified commerce project, we talked about it.[59:18.7]I think that for years, the project has been on a digital revolution of all companies. Some have been more late than others, but I think that we are at the end of that.[59:37.2]There is Shopify, lots of things, omnichannel, etc. I think that there, we are more in the process of entering into a kind of technical war. Well techno-IT.[59:56.3]And that the companies that will be the smartest, fastest and most agile compared to their IT will be able to do things much faster than the others.[60:12.8]Today, I find that an IT project can be too rigid in a company and take far too much time and that we must manage to find things much faster to put in place to be faster than the others and deliver more simply.[60:29.4]I think that the IT, techno revolution, I think that it’s the future. You see, before, we were a brake, for example, e-commerce for marketing.[60:45.4]I take a silly thing. With Magento, marketing tells me “Bastien, I want to do a great campaign with a great page next week to talk about that product.”[61:02.5]And I told him wait, I have to insert the products. I have to do this, I have to do that. It’s going to be complicated. Leave me one or two months of planning.[61:21.6]Now, he comes to see me. We try to anticipate, but at least, I can do everything instantly. For me, soon, IT and techno, it has to reach that level.[61:45.4]And there, companies, they will move faster. Which is logical in itself, because indeed all channels, all themes have digitised, so now you have to harmonise all that with their structure.[62:05.8]And I have the impression, after it’s my opinion, that I am waiting a bit for the next ERP, a bit SaaS, like the tools that we have today, SaaS super easy to connect with all the other ecosystems.[62:25.2]For me, it does not yet exist today. If it exists, I would be very happy that someone comes to see me and tells me, there you go, look a bit at that.[62:44.4]So there you go, that’s a bit the techno war. And then after, for Eden, it’s a unified commerce circle.[63:03.1]We want to have a very good till, a very good tool to provide all that to our franchisees and to expand even more broadly our franchised offers in France.[63:18.7]Open more stores, it’s really, I think, our main strategy. And while also trying to strengthen ourselves internationally.[63:37.2]In a first time, around France, to do simply, potentially with rugby countries, the UK, potentially go and test South Africa, things where there is really a connotation with rugby.[63:56.3]But there you go, I think that in France, we still have a little bit of beautiful things to do. Too good.[64:12.8]And so, last little question a bit traditional on Loyoly Talks, if you had to retain only one piece of advice for a brand that wants a little bit to scale, what would be your recommendation?[64:29.4]For me, it would be… I don’t know if it’s one, it’s a bit three intertwined things, it’s storytelling, community and data.[64:45.4]For me, these are the three things today, in 2025, that are going to allow you to take your company to another level and a story.[65:02.5]A real one, an embodied product or then with an embodied founder, whatever you want, but something to tell that is going to sublimate your product a bit.[65:21.6]I don’t even put aside that the product must be good, that, it seems essential to me. The second, it’s to create your community.[65:37.2]At the time, Eden Park created a community, there were no social networks, but they managed to create a community.[65:56.3]Now, you have to do it with Insta, TikTok, create a beautiful community compared to that. And once you have done all that, it’s the data that will allow you to tell yourself, OK, I do that, I am going to spend here, I am going to spend there, I am going to scale each year.[66:12.8]I am going to put a bit more and I am going to go a bit higher. But for me, clearly, if tomorrow I had a product, if I had to sell this super, I don’t know what it is, this super bottle there.[66:29.4]Super story, you see, this bottle, it is made in walnut of super quality, made in South Africa, super thing, because my father was a fan of I don’t know what.[66:45.4]A real story, the product must speak to you, you must not lie, it is super high quality already that is a great base to start I think.[67:02.5]Too good and I think a piece of advice a bit maybe forgotten so I want to bring it back to the forefront thanks to you.[67:18.7]Thank you very much Bastien anyway. Thank you Joseph it was cool.[67:34.2]Yeah, clearly.‍