The strategic choices behind Cuure’s subscription model (with Hugo Facchin)

[00:00.0] Well listen, Hugo, very pleased to have you on the podcast. And glad to be here. Right, we're going to talk a little about your background first, and then also the story of Cuure. I think, as you know, it's been quite helpful to those who listen to us, whether they're e-commerce professionals, agencies, or people in the e-commerce ecosystem. [00:16.1] So, looking forward to this episode. Oh well, I hope it'll be useful. And perhaps, before we dive in, I'll let you introduce yourself briefly for those who don't know you yet. So, I'm Hugo. I'm one of the two co-founders of Cuure, which is no longer such a young start-up. [00:33.0] We're six years old now, it's an online nutritional supplements company. I'll come back to that, if you'd like, with a slightly more specific intro about Cuure. Before that, I studied business, after which I went to the United States where I had my first entrepreneurial adventure, where I was CEO of a food tech company, also on D-to-C subscription-based online models. [00:56.5] It's a company we ended up selling, not so well, rather poorly actually, at the end of 2017. And following that adventure, I still had the desire to start something. I come from a family of doctors and health entrepreneurs. I wanted to do consumer and simply do what I knew how to do. [01:13.9] At the same time, I wanted to have a bit more impact on the value I create for the consumer. And it was quite naturally that I developed the idea for Cuure, with my partner Jules. And freshly back from the States at the start of 2019, we decided to launch Cuure. [01:29.2] On top of that, I enjoy, with my modest means, trying to both support entrepreneurs, especially in consumer, and to invest a bit as well. That's about it for me. I imagine you'd also like a word about Cuure? Yes, with pleasure, if you could give us a quick overview. [01:46.8] So Cuure... We're really trying to create the leader in science-based nutraceuticals. What does that mean concretely? We want to offer solutions based primarily on nutritional supplements that address all consumers' needs, regardless of their stage of life, their needs, whether those needs are occasional, cyclical, or ongoing. [02:10.3] And to address those issues, those needs, with the most scientifically proven, most efficient products possible, and above all the ones most genuinely suited to their needs. So, the main product we historically launched is a personalisation offer. [02:29.0] The idea is that we have an online questionnaire. There are also bio-tests, etc., but the vast majority of people do it via the questionnaire, which addresses your diet, your lifestyle, the issues you're likely to have. And it asks you more specific questions, where relevant, about your needs. [02:48.8] Then several algorithms run and suggest generally between three and eight active ingredients, roughly speaking supplements, that address that need. And that translates into a monthly subscription for a personalised thirty-day course with thirty sachets that are genuinely personalised to help you feel better. [03:08.2] But in any case, yes, it's quite a nice experience as well. It truly is fully personalised. I'd still like, just before we get started, since we touched on your background, for you to explain a little... I find it interesting to understand why you wanted to go to the States. [03:24.6] Quite a few people think about it. Could you walk us through your thinking at the time? Listen, it was— Well, for me, it wasn't at all the theoretical American Dream or the entrepreneurial pursuit you often hear about. I'll be honest, it was more a series of coincidences, really. [03:41.2] It turns out that I had, on top of that, already lived in the States for a year in my youth. Yes. And it hadn't particularly blown me away, just a personal note. Right. But what happened when I got my degree? I was working on an entrepreneurial project at the time with a friend of mine, who didn't actually want to be an entrepreneur at all. [04:01.1] I genuinely believe that entrepreneurship is a real vocation. I don't think he was cut out for it at all. He got his finance job in London. He told me "Goodbye. Not for me." And I thought: honestly, I don't know how to do anything. Am I really going to build a project on my own? I'm not much of a lone wolf. I like working on projects with others. [04:16.6] That's how I operate. And it so happened there was a chap who'd graduated from ESSEC that I knew a little through a network, an alumni network, who was doing an MBA at Columbia, in New York, and was setting up a project with an American woman. And I went to him with a bit of a bluff, saying "I'm a real entrepreneur, I'm really keen to join a project." I knew it was in food, but it was still very early days for the project. [04:35.0] And they called my bluff in return, saying: "We've got a spot at Google, at Columbia. Come on, come and do a trial. If it goes well, you're in." Right. [04:51.5] So I sorted myself out. Two weeks later, I was in New York with some sort of makeshift visa, well not even a visa actually. And I worked like that for two months, for free, with this bloke and this woman I barely knew, working from Columbia's library, the library at Columbia. [05:09.6] And in fact, I had a brilliant time. I joined the project as a partner and that's how it began. For me, it was really more of a— Interesting. I think the only thing to take away is that you have to seize opportunities. Truly, it was an opportunity that just came together and I followed it. Right, absolutely fascinating, that little aside about your background, and so I suggest we jump into the quick-fire true or false now. [05:29.6] First question: do you still take Cuure supplements yourself every morning? Listen, yes, particularly at the moment— If I'm being very honest, there are phases where I've taken them less or not at all. Right now, I'm fully committed to the latest product we've launched, which is quite a complex product — it's a highly comprehensive superfood powder. [05:55.5] It's a synergy of eighty-two active ingredients. Right. So the idea is that it really allows you to elevate your mental and physical performance, cover all your needs and maintain good health. It's truly a foundational supplement from the perspective of always being at your peak and sustaining yourself over time. [06:17.3] So for the record, this product isn't personalised. It's a product that again has eighty-two active ingredients. So you'll get all the vitamins, minerals, probiotics, antioxidants, collagen, proteins, superfoods, in short— Well, that's quite a lot of things. And so right now, I'm fully committed to my Onele course, which is this product. And since September, it's been brilliant. Brilliant! We'll have to try it, I think I've seen the ads, it looks rather good— Honestly, it's great. It's really good. There are now already six patents on the product. [06:49.8] So that's rather exciting. We have some significant clinical studies underway, even if we already have some preliminary results. But in any case, for me personally, it's brilliant. Brilliant. Second question: is the French market more sceptical than foreign markets? [07:04.9] Specifically regarding nutritional supplements? Yes. Listen, certainly compared to the American market. I think Anglo-Saxon markets in general, yes. In any case, there's an apprehension towards nutritional supplements that's rather particular here. [07:23.6] We're a country that's fortunate to have a strong healthcare environment, medical systems, etc. We're quite good at that, we can be proud of it. But we also have this history which constrains us a bit when it comes to other ways of taking care of ourselves. [07:45.2] And I also think that in France, there's the whole legacy of the nutritional supplements sector, where it was very loosely regulated for a long time... It's a market that boomed in the early eighties and was very poorly regulated. [08:01.7] So it was a bit of a free-for-all. A huge number of labs and large labs built themselves up during that period, some doing excellent work, others far less so. That created quite a lot of mistrust among consumers. [08:17.9] It wasn't an industry that necessarily had a particularly good reputation as a result. And then there were all the pharma lobbies, primarily, who came in and tried to constrain the emergence and growth of this market. And as things became more structured, more scientifically grounded, with more and more studies, more and more research — not just on nutritional supplements, but on nutrition in general and by extension, on nutritional supplements. [08:46.5] It started to become more and more legitimate, increasingly recognised from a scientific standpoint, by the medical community, etc. And rightly so. But it's certainly moving much more slowly. In any case, we're behind the Anglo-Saxon markets, particularly the American market, even if things are genuinely moving in the right direction. And all the better, since on top of that, the emergence of many players like us, and there are others who are broadly trying to do things properly — each with their own specificities — is helping to raise standards across the industry. Pushing those slightly dinosaur-like incumbents who weren't always doing things well into a corner. And of course, we're all businesses, so we have commercial objectives, but we also have obligations to consumers, and that can only be a good thing. [09:36.7] It's strange that you say that in France, insufficient regulation at a certain point actually created mistrust— No, because it was seen as a market that was a bit... The French person is a rationalist, a learned individual as well, by culture and history, I think. [09:53.4] And in fact, everything that's seen as slightly more esoteric — not in a negative sense of the word — is often a bit removed from one's innate pragmatism, from one's existing knowledge base. Right. And I think there was a perception that it was a bit of a passing phenomenon. [10:11.3] And then, nutritional supplements — just the terminology itself isn't particularly inspiring. Right. I think it doesn't do justice to what nutritional supplements actually are. And then there are also underlying trends in nutrition that mean today there are things that are self-evident that weren't before. [10:31.5] When you look at the vitamin content of a fruit, for example, over fifty years it's lost — I can't remember the exact figure — something like that percentage. Yes. Even more than that, in terms of content, with our ultra-processed diet, etc. [10:46.9] Today, in terms of the nutrients you can get, they're simply not sufficient. And even if you tried to have a perfect diet, we all have our own metabolisms, our own deficiencies, etc. Yes. And that's also something that's coming to light. Obviously, eating well and having a healthy lifestyle first and foremost. [11:05.6] That remains the number one piece of advice, whatever the case of course. But indeed, now that there's this serious engagement with the industry and its genuine role in people's health. Well, as a result, it's tending towards greater regulation, and that can only be a good thing ultimately. [11:22.1] And in 2019, would you say that selling nutritional supplements online was feasible or rather difficult? Honestly, it was feasible. If I'm being straightforward, it was feasible. The underlying trend was already there, not just around nutritional supplements, but broadly around a new way of taking care of oneself. [11:43.4] You had strong underlying trends already — yoga, meditation. That sort of thing, which was already quite powerful. I think consumers were starting to move towards new habits, new ways of looking after themselves. [11:59.1] E-commerce was already reasonably well developed. It was very limited, however, in this particular segment. It was a fairly dusty segment, as I explained. It turns out you're never alone in having an idea. Well, we were more or less alone at the time. There were two other companies that tried to do broadly the same thing as us in terms of personalisation. [12:16.0] But there was an explosion of new players over a window of about three years. Yes. Which just shows you're never alone in wanting to do something, and that's a good thing. So there was this sense of being at the right time to market, I think. Yes. [12:32.6] And in fact, objectively, you arrived at rather a good time. There were incumbents, e-commerce on the rise. When we started in e-commerce, on our industry — it was smaller than direct sales, so things like mail order, door-to-door, etc. [12:49.6] It's quite remarkable. Just to show you how old-fashioned the industry was. Obviously, digital has since overtaken it. So honestly, I don't think it was— I don't want to... I don't want to say about ourselves and some of our competitors that we did something extraordinary. Honestly, it was a fairly straightforward alignment of a promising industry— Yes. [13:08.1] That wasn't yet very digitalised, and that's about it. However, today— I think it's harder today. That's the reality. Yes. Because ultimately, to be very honest, in the early days, when it was just an online nutritional supplements company— There were no barriers to entry, really. Building a company that quickly generates a bit of revenue, etc. [13:24.7] Is quite achievable. It's much harder to scale, and that's not only true in e-commerce. It's true across the industry. That's why it's a very fragmented, very fragmented industry — with an enormous number of players every single day. I genuinely — I see a new player launching — I don't even understand how it's possible. And that's a good thing because it drives innovation, creates competition, continues to educate consumers. But I think today it's much harder. And you were saying earlier that the term "nutritional supplement" didn't fully satisfy you — didn't satisfy you a hundred per cent... [13:58.9] If you were Prime Minister tomorrow, what would you call it then? Well, that's difficult. There's a term which is a sort of anglicism — nutraceuticals. Right. I think it carries rather more marketing connotations in the sense that it's meant to lend a bit more weight, particularly scientific legitimacy and credibility to the terminology. [14:26.1] I don't know, I thought — well no, actually it's not true — actually these are questions we've already asked ourselves. We've already said: "What if we tried to push a new piece of terminology and make it the absolute norm?" Right. But "supplementation", I prefer supplementation — to "complementation." Right. [14:43.5] Honestly, I don't have a clear answer. Right. E-commerce in 2026 will be more about retention than performance — true or false? I think true. So I'll go with the rules of the game. No, I genuinely think yes, because... [15:01.0] Not just in our industry, I think it's true more broadly. The consumer landscape is quite particular at the moment. We're in a fairly complex macro-economic and geopolitical environment, which unfortunately doesn't yet have a particularly clear horizon. [15:20.1] When you look at all the 2026 forecasts, it's not tremendously cheerful, the weather forecast isn't particularly bright. In all likelihood the environment will remain that way until... the 2027 elections. [15:35.9] Yes. So I do have a sense that the economic environment isn't particularly favourable. Across the board for all businesses, really. I think in consumer, it's all the more true, actually in consumer particularly. [15:52.1] And so in that environment where there are still a great many players, where there's inevitably a little less money too. The challenge is to focus more on retention, more on trying to build a relationship with your consumer, offering them other types of services, addressing other types of needs and therefore, from a purely commercial standpoint, increasing their LTV, their purchase frequency, their retention — whatever metrics suit you — I think that will become an increasingly important challenge. [16:32.3] That said, there are other theories that suggest that as a result, your competitive environment is less intense, fewer people are able to spend. So your CPI decreases slightly and if you continue to be the one who performs well, you continue to acquire more than— Than commitments. Yes. [16:49.6] And both hold water, and I think in reality, you can continue doing lots of things. Yes. You have to be creative. But in that game, yes — I think it's true that 2026 in particular, given the context. Yes. Is probably more oriented that way, yes. Interesting. Subscription models must adapt to the customer's life, not the other way around. Well, that's completely true. [17:07.3] Objectively, a subscription that doesn't respond to a genuine need is often a lost cause. In any case, that's my perception of things. These are obviously business models when you look at them through the lens of pure entrepreneurship, business— Yes. [17:28.5] VC, the whole ecosystem. The subscription business model is one that's particularly exciting, interesting for— the obvious reasons. Yes. But on the other hand, a subscription business where the subscription doesn't actually address a specific consumer need has very little point. [17:51.3] Yes. So that's a prerequisite for me. The French consumer doesn't like subscriptions, far less so than the American consumer. I saw it — I saw it with products that were full discovery products in the States. So they weren't essential products, unlike the products we're trying to bring to consumers, and the purchasing and subscription behaviours were completely different. [18:13.9] So — it's really quite vital to try to design a model that corresponds to a need, that corresponds to a journey, that corresponds to what the customer actually expects. Yes, makes sense. Trust is the true asset of a health brand. [18:31.2] Right... Yes, well— Yes, depending on your positioning, I think there are health brands whose primary play isn't necessarily to build a brand with particular credibility, one that people particularly trust — they'll have volume plays, they'll have price plays, they'll have broad-range plays, classic e-commerce in terms of SKU range— Yes. [18:59.5] And they'll play those cards instead. And I genuinely think that today, those are still cards that pay off handsomely. Really. And I— We don't do that at all, but I think the path of building something that's scientifically credible, so building a relationship of trust — well, I'll be honest, with Cuure, I frame it very much through the lens of science and efficacy. [19:20.8] But it's not just that. There's obviously the whole customer experience you're able to provide, customer service, talking about subscriptions — but also the ability to cancel easily. In short, there are lots of things that build the bond with a brand. But I do think that — at least for those with our kind of positioning, like us — building credibility and trust is essential. [19:40.6] All the more so for us, with our vision, which is ultimately to say that as I mentioned in the introduction — for any type of need, at any point in your life, you should be able to say: "Right, Cuure is a reference and I know I can find a solution suited to that need that will work." So indeed, building that trust and always being at the back of the consumer's mind is important. [19:58.3] Right. But listen, wonderful for that quick true-or-false section. Now, I suggest we get down to the nitty-gritty. Perhaps to go back a little to Cuure's early days. Could you walk us through the challenges you faced at launch? You gave us a bit of context at the start. What were the big issues for you right at the beginning? [20:18.4] Right... Well, listen, we had a partnership, with Jules Marcilhac, my co-founder. We were friends. We'd never really worked together and we were friends — acquaintances, not close friends. Right. I think the first — the very first big challenge — was asking ourselves how do we stress-test our partnership as much as possible. [20:36.5] Push it in as many directions as possible, put it through all sorts of different scenarios to see how resilient our partnership was — almost like a study. Yes. [21:03.5] An accelerated in vitro study, if you will. We tried to say: Right, are we able to work together? What are likely to be our intuitive and perceived areas of strength, and how do we quantify — perhaps — our potential weaknesses, and how do we sensibly and without ego divide things up, allocate roles and ensure we have a lasting co-founder relationship? That was genuinely one of our first big exercises, which I'd genuinely encourage everyone who isn't a solo entrepreneur to do. [21:32.5] Yes. Right. So that was a significant challenge, but one that went well, though it was a real challenge. The other big challenge was also making sure in terms of ideas and vision that we were aligned, that we were pursuing the right idea, that we were both— You know, beyond simply— We weren't taking an approach of wanting to do an entrepreneurial coup. [22:01.2] We weren't — it's easy to say and a bit... But you know, we weren't obsessed with: "We want to create something where we'll capture enormous financial value." Yes. That wasn't necessarily the driving force. Of course, I'm not saying that's not something we care about, but — if you like, we wanted to live — we wanted to have a strong mission, something that genuinely matters to us. [22:19.5] Jules' mother is also a doctor in nutrition. We both genuinely have that in our — in our DNA, in our family background. And at the same time, making sure we had the same level of ambition, that the idea we had could be genuinely ambitious. [22:34.8] So we stretched that quite a bit as well. So those were a bit the first two big things we did. And then, well — Jules also had an e-commerce, subscription background — In the States. Right. So we both had quite a lot of instincts, objectively. Yes. So on the pure launch side, we were — we were pretty clear-headed about it. It might sound presumptuous, but honestly, I think we already had the right foundation. Yes. [23:07.6] What was most challenging for us, where we were least equipped, was mainly the scientific aspects, as I say. Yes. There, Jules is an engineer, I have a commerce background. But if you like, to build to the scientific standard we wanted, etc. We were fortunate to have that family hack because we both had doctors and healthcare professionals in our immediate circles. So we were able to move quickly on that, but it was quite a significant challenge. [23:38.1] So yes, honestly, at the very beginning, that's more or less it. And did you divide up the roles straight away? Yes, straight away. Honestly, it was part of that first exercise we did. We really pushed the game quite far in that, if you want the detail — we knew we were going with a CEO-COO pairing, that was the model that suited us and our business. And CEO in the fairly classic sense of the pairing, which I don't really need to elaborate on. [24:13.1] CEO more in the externally-facing vision, development, brand and marketing sense, and COO more as the daily driver, day-to-day operational. And we did a sort of job description of what, in our philosophy, constituted a good CEO. [24:31.2] What made someone a CEO? What made a good CEO? We had it reviewed a bit by entrepreneur friends, and also by some advisors we have. That's another thing — even if you're someone who already has a degree of background and experience, having advisors is essential. Yes, absolutely. [24:54.1] And so we ended up with these two almost desk research jobs. And then afterwards, we scored and assessed ourselves against the various attributes we'd identified, and we had this exercise done by our close ones, by people we'd worked with, etc. [25:10.9] To get the most objective view possible. And in fact, we arrived at the conclusion that had been our initial intuition — that is, me as CEO and Jules as COO. But we'd done the whole process to validate it. I see. And actually, right at the very beginning — and we've had occasion to revisit it — at the very start, we'd told ourselves this seemed to be the best approach for at least the zero-to-one phase. [25:29.8] Perhaps at some point in the company's history, we'd evolve things. That hasn't happened, but we've discussed it not so long ago. Interesting, and I think that's good advice for everyone starting out. And today, I believe about 90% of your business involves subscriptions. [25:46.8] If I'm not mistaken. Yes, roughly. And so you chose that model for obvious reasons as you mentioned earlier. But how do you manage the balance between one-off purchases and the route towards subscription? [26:04.0] I think there are quite a few brands attempting subscription. We see many attempts that aren't always successful. So yes, keen to understand how you manage this today. We started with subscription only. It was the only option. That was the only option. Right. We've only had one-off purchases for a short while. [26:23.0] Right, OK. For about a year, or roughly a year. Right. And there it is. So that's already one element of the answer. That is to say, we weren't really wrestling with that question. Obviously, we always ran the theoretical economic calculations. [26:38.3] We ran tests to get a rough sense of the potential opportunity cost we'd have from doing what we call one-time purchase versus subscription. And we reached a point where subscription for personalisation was very well suited. [26:59.4] Yes. Why? Because the aim of personalisation isn't that you fill in your questionnaire or do your test, you get your personalised regime, and then you're left to your own devices. It's a monthly subscription. Every month, you have access to a follow-up questionnaire with a new tracking algorithm that runs — which can readjust your course based on your perception of how your needs have evolved, the effectiveness of your initial course, changes in your life, and we might remove one product, add two, tell you to stop one and come back to it a month later because you need a washout period for that one. [27:43.3] In short. And we have a tracking app, so you have an app. About 50% of our subscribers tell me daily: "I took this, I didn't take that, this seems to be having an effect, that's having an impact" and in fact, thanks to all of that— So it's quite an evolving subscription. [28:02.7] Especially since, in nutritional supplements generally — for the majority of active ingredients, I'm generalising, but it's broadly the case — it's generally at least three months of taking them to really begin to perceive the efficacy. Yes. Some active ingredients take a month, some a bit less. Some are ongoing. So if you like, it's quite coherent. [28:19.8] When we started having other types of products where there was less of this obvious justification for the subscription — serving the consumer for the reason I just explained — we had less of that rationale. And that's when we said, well actually, it's a bit forcing a subscription for the sake of it. And that's when we introduced the one-off purchase option. So in fact, ultimately, for us the subscription versus non-subscription journeys correspond more to our different product ranges and different consumer experiences. [28:56.8] And ultimately, that's where there isn't so much tension between our subscription and one-off purchase views. Interesting. And today, how do you track conversion? I imagine one of your main objectives is to turn one-off buyers into recurring customers. [29:16.6] Are there any levers you've been able to identify that work well, or conversely, things you've tested that haven't delivered interesting results? Well, that's a broad question. On the subscription side, obviously your commercial objective is always to try to improve your cohorts and the retention of your consumers. [29:40.1] Where it's slightly particular in our industry is that, as I say, for many active ingredients — or for many of the personas who come to Cuure, you don't necessarily have either the intention or the need to supplement continuously. Yes. It depends. For some, that's the case, but for others it isn't. [29:56.2] You come because you have a specific issue at the moment — I don't know, you might have spots, acne issues — or, you know, I'm talking about another persona who's more in the mindset of preparing for a race, a marathon, something. It's fairly time-bound, you see. And so our goal is to ensure that over that period of time, we have the most appropriate response for them. And for us, actually, where it's most important is engaging with them during the times when they're not consuming. [30:22.4] That's where it's quite particular. Because our goal is not to ensure that your retention month on month is always maximised. Of course, those are things we look at, and obviously if we can maximise it, all the better, but in terms of intention towards the consumer, it's not necessarily what we're trying to do. [30:37.4] What we want is to say: "Right, you need this, clearly for three months, and it's fine if you stop." But our challenge is to ensure that for their — their next need... They were preparing for a marathon and now, a year later, they keep coming down with illness and want to work on their immunity. Yes. [30:55.8] We want them to be sufficiently convinced and engaged with Cuure that Cuure is their go-to. And for us, that's a metric, it's a metric we track quite closely. It's not necessarily, again, the standard progressive, linear cohort view. It's more about saying: after a given period of time, regardless of whether they've been consuming continuously or not, how many come back at least once? [31:19.2] Yes, right. And that's a bit our — you know, that's a bit our north star, that's what we track. And so we try to engage them during the quiet periods. So that means — for instance, not trying to push and bombard them with commercial offers all the time to try to win them back. It's more about trying to educate them, showing them new things, and keeping a connection with them. [31:41.0] We have many users who have the app even while they're not consuming Cuure products — Yes. Because they continue to consume the content we put on there. They continue to track certain things even while they're taking supplements from elsewhere. [31:56.4] Yes. So engaging them during those quiet periods in that way is important. For— the one-off purchase logic, the challenge is slightly different because there we'll already try to maximise their basket. That's more what we'll try to do. Yes. Because in that case, obviously, we have less of a direct relationship with them. [32:14.8] So that will involve using fairly classic levers — upselling, cross-selling. And potentially progressive offers at a good price point. Yes. Classic stuff honestly, I don't think we're doing anything particularly revolutionary. [32:33.5] Afterwards, it's about executing well and harmonising all actions well. And again, we don't force things, we don't necessarily try to force — a consumer who buys once into a subscription. Right. We try instead to think in terms of personas — we say: "Is this person more likely to always buy as a one-off purchase?" Yes. And if that's the case, we'll focus more on refining their experience within that model. [32:50.4] And there can be permeability. We can say: "Right, this person could shift towards a subscription." And conversely, there are people who start a subscription, but we realise that based on their usage, it's not necessarily what suits them. So that's where our goal is to have this somewhat — a somewhat three-hundred-and-sixty-degree understanding, even within consumer clustering — to try to guide them towards the best experience for them. Yes, absolutely. [33:23.6] And you briefly touched earlier on the ease of cancelling as well. It's true that intuitively, you'd rather try to keep people as long as possible. But you were saying that on the contrary, you've had good results by making cancellation easier. [33:38.7] Yes, cancelling is incredibly straightforward for us. Yes. And the subscription is clear. Yes. I mean, it's not hidden away somewhere. Honestly, the subscription is clear and it's easy to cancel. I mean, it's genuinely easy to cancel. We even have a thing where if your subscription has just gone through and you missed it — if you contact us quickly enough, we'll cancel it and refund you. [33:58.7] So you see, we're extremely honest about it. Because again, our goal isn't to force subscriptions for the sake of subscriptions — it's to have a subscription that genuinely corresponds to consumer needs. Now... It's possible that we're leaving some short-term value on the table. But we believe that relative to our ambition, which is more long-term — Yes. [34:16.5] To build a genuine reference and a real leader in our space — we consider that this is part of the long-term commitments, and a marginal value we leave on the table that will ultimately allow us to sustain the trust — to come back to that — Yes. That consumers have in us. Extremely interesting. [34:33.1] And earlier, you were saying the market had developed enormously, that we were almost reaching a saturation point. Today — or in any case, there are more and more players, including some we know well at Loyoly. What's your strategy, given all these new entrants, to — you know — keep slightly... In any case, not dilute your core DNA and be able to maintain, so to speak, a head start if you were among the first movers? [35:06.1] Well, there are several elements to that answer. First of all, I genuinely believe... I mean, broadly speaking in the industry as a whole, we tend to have fairly good relations with our competitors. We're more or less close, I know them to varying degrees, but I regularly go for lunch or a drink — [35:21.5] Not a drink, a coffee. Herbal tea. A herbal tea — with founders of direct competitors. We get on well and we share our figures, our concerns. Yes. And I view competition in a fairly healthy way — honestly, because again, we're in a market that's large enough, that's growing, where many people have great ambitions. [35:47.1] So that's healthy. That's a bit the idealistic answer, but it's a genuine one. That being said, indeed, the desire to innovate is extremely strong. We try to innovate significantly at the product level — Yes. [36:03.8] Building on something that's fairly unique to Cuure — we have an enormous amount of consumer data. Yes. Consumer-product data. You know, the questionnaire on average covers sixty questions, sixty answers. [36:18.9] The average, it can go up to over a hundred and can go lower. We have over two million French people who've completed the questionnaire. We have one of the largest behavioural data sets — it's self-reported, certainly, but on the actual challenges consumers face, broken down seasonally and that we can manipulate and examine from all sorts of different angles to understand whether a woman over forty-five from the south-west of France — Yes. [36:47.7] Has more of one need or another. And on top of that, we have — I hope I'm not getting this wrong — just over four hundred thousand unique consumers — Yes. With around fifty per cent of them having used the app. [37:04.3] So in fact — Yes. Even on the output side, if you like — We also have a huge amount of insight into what's working for us, what's working less well, which continuously feeds — a kind of data loop for us, both for improving our recommendations, our purchase journey, the algorithms obviously, but also feeds our R&D. And tells us: "Right, for this category of consumer with this particular issue, clearly our recommendations or our products aren't efficient enough." Yes. [37:36.6] We aim to have 95% of consumers — that's one of our north stars — 95% of consumers who, after three months, tell us they've experienced a benefit. [37:51.8] It's simple. When we started, we were at 50%. That was already respectable. Today we're at eighty-six or eighty-seven. Right. And every marginal point is hard to gain in practice. That's because at the start, we launched with thirteen active ingredients. Today we have eighty. We do continuous optimisation of our products. [38:10.5] From a scientific R&D standpoint. We're always at the cutting edge, we have a great many products with patents, patented ingredients, technically proven, etc. But all of that allows us both to improve continuously, to also track market trends very closely — Yes. [38:27.1] And then to zoom out and say: "Right, for this particular issue, for this particular persona, there's enough depth and genuine need to be able to offer a highly specific solution — Yes. That genuinely addresses that." That's where we want to innovate. And since we have the particular characteristic — we're not the only ones, but — of having our R&D completely in-house. [38:49.2] These are our formulations, our developments, our formulae, our processes, etc. And the capacity in-house — we have three, two in-house engineers who do this — That allows us to continually try to be at the forefront and to innovate as a result. [39:06.6] So that's a bit our edge, and it's something we try to cultivate, since again, our ultimate ambition is to have the best solution for a specific need or a specific persona. [39:22.9] So that's how we do it. And so right now, with all the data you have, you must be observing some trends over the past few months, the past few years. Could you give us a little snapshot? Right... What can I say? There are more and more vegetarians. Yes. More vegans. [39:38.3] Almost — well, at least declared. Obviously, always to be taken with a pinch of salt, because it also depends on your traffic mix. So you inevitably have a bias. Our two million people are predominantly very digitally-engaged individuals. Yes, yes. There are always biases. But putting those biases aside — Yes. [39:54.4] What else can I tell you? People are increasingly stressed. Yes. They live in that sort of world. Only good news, isn't it. People, post-Covid, are increasingly wanting to look after themselves. Yes. People are increasingly placing health at the top of their priority list. Yes. [40:10.5] Among their priorities. The appetite for topics around performance, sport, and recovery — Yes. Is growing stronger and stronger. Yes. Including among women, actually. Yes. I don't know, there are loads. [40:27.5] Yes, it's interesting. To throw something out like that off the cuff. Yes, yes, it does reflect quite a lot of what we have, more or less intuitively — Yes, of course. In mind. Sometimes we come across quite amusing things. These aren't figures we look at every day, because often — Yes. [40:42.8] We're more likely to look at the big trends when we're in development and R&D cycles, etc. But it's always interesting. We try to do it roughly every quarter — have a bit of a zoom-out, say: "Right, what's going on? Are there any big shifts we should be keeping an eye on?" Yes. [41:03.3] And yes, honestly, it often comes back to the same thing. When people often ask me: "What do people consume the most?" They consume what they're most deficient in. Ultimately, it ends up following a kind of logic, thankfully. Yes, of course. Have you got a little anecdote about any particularly surprising data or counter-intuitive trends you've observed? [41:25.1] Listen, a few things. One thing that's quite surprising for us, in any case something we didn't anticipate and that's growing more and more, is that people increasingly have very specific dietary regimes. I see. That's rather surprising. [41:42.6] I think there's an underlying trend towards ever greater precision and understanding — a growing awareness of your own diet, of what agrees with you or doesn't. People are beginning, thankfully, to be increasingly attentive, educated, etc. And in fact, we're seeing that more and more. [41:58.7] When we started, it was quite — We very quickly had a list of — I hope I'm not talking nonsense again, but I'd say roughly twenty different distinct diets. And at the beginning, yes, there were vegetarians, there were vegans, etc. [42:14.9] But there were few other diets that were truly... They were marginal, you know. As time goes on, there are more and more. And I think that, again, it really quite interestingly follows this trend. And another thing is that people are increasingly educated on the subject of nutritional supplements. [42:35.3] And that, again, is a good thing. And as a result, sometimes they're increasingly specific both in their answers and sometimes in the questions they send us as follow-ups. And that's also extremely interesting to observe. And again, all the better, because for us, it points towards the structuring of the market, the fact that consumers are getting better and better informed, which will ultimately legitimise those who are genuinely trying to do things in the most effective way possible. [43:06.9] Really, that's just the way it is. That said, we're still in a mass market. The bulk of the market, unfortunately, fortunately — I genuinely don't know — but factually, it's still the somewhat community-driven nutritional supplements market — "I know I want omega-3s, I know you want magnesium, you've come to me, I'm fairly confident in this brand, I'm somewhat price-driven and I buy it." [43:25.2] Amazon is absolutely booming. Yes, yes. There you have it, the market is still there. And the big players in our market, they don't e-commerce— But — Yes. [43:41.9] They're still somewhat — it's a bit of a blunt term, but it's a genuine reality — quite generalist in how they approach things. Today, the market still has enormous scope. When you look at the American market, there's a whole segment of the market that operates that way, of course. But you also have a much more advanced emergence of companies that are far more specialised, far more technically-focused — Yes. [44:03.5] In what they offer. We're not quite there yet in France. But we're gaining maturity on the subject, so we're increasingly moving towards more specific and highly personalised things. Perhaps to round off the episode — Round off already? [44:18.7] I was going to say. It's gone quickly, but in any case, you know, as a way of wrapping up this episode — perhaps if you have four or five learnings, or even two or three learnings from recent years, from your experience. [44:34.0] Broadly speaking, it's quite an open question, but are there two or three things that come to mind — things you've taken away? Yes, right... So, going back to a piece of advice I've already mentioned but which seems essential to me — surround yourself well, take on advisors, it's hugely important. [44:52.2] Yes. I think from the very start, it's key. One or several, genuinely. I think invest heavily in your company culture. Again, it can sound a bit woolly, but for us it's something we know from our previous experience in the States — from a business standpoint, it's hugely important. [45:13.8] For us, it's something we invested in very early — company culture, our values, etc. Right. We're not saying we have the best culture, but we have our own and it works. The people who come to Cuure buy into it. So I think that's something really important, because the journey of a business isn't linear and very quickly you go from being just two entrepreneurs to a more or less sizeable team, and there will be wonderful moments and less wonderful moments. [45:43.7] And having that osmosis, that framework, that common foundation — I think that's really key, and it's a really important asset. Ultimately. I think having the right level of risk awareness and risk-taking is really important. [46:06.6] I think we're in a fairly particular environment, very different from when we started. For the macro reasons I mentioned earlier. So I think always being as informed as possible about what might happen both directly in your industry and also more broadly, trying to join the dots — that's always important. [46:30.4] We got caught out a few times on that front, and I think we didn't handle it well enough. But at the same time, you mustn't let it become — it has to be more of an opportunity-creator. That is, you have to spot risks and you have to spot macro movements that might shift your business slightly. [46:49.2] And you have to see where the opportunity lies and take the associated risk. I think that's also hugely important. Perhaps something we were less attuned to, less aware of, at the start of Cuure. Yes. What else can I tell you? I think staying — again, it's a tension that's difficult, particularly for an entrepreneur like me, for entrepreneurs like Jules and I, who enjoy doing lots of things. [47:14.3] I think that once you reach a certain level of maturity, being able to stay sufficiently focused is quite important. Again, finishing something properly when you already want to move on to lots of other things — obviously — but genuinely consolidating one way of doing things, whatever the project, and being sufficiently focused before moving on to the next thing. [47:39.2] I think that's something important, particularly when you reach a certain scale — which is where we are. I hope we'll reach others, of course. Right. What else can I tell you? That makes four? Yes, that's a good start, at any rate. [47:56.6] No, yes, no, I think... And above all, on the other hand — again, this might sound a bit trite, but it's somewhat our philosophy — I think it's always hugely important to... To assess your level of enjoyment in this — Yes. In the entrepreneurial adventure — Right. [48:14.5] To assess your level of ambition, to assess your alignment with — Yes. Your co-founder or co-founders, with your leadership, whatever the case. To ensure that collective momentum continues to move in the right direction. Because, you know, again, it's... [48:32.3] I think entrepreneurship is a vocation. I think there's been a hype around entrepreneurship that's starting to dissipate somewhat, if you ask me — because it's also filtering out people who saw entrepreneurship as a possible path, and that remains true of course, but I think it goes a bit deeper than that. [48:50.3] And so making sure you're genuinely enjoying it is quite important — whilst at the same time having regular checkpoints to make sure everyone is heading in the right direction, in the same direction. And sometimes, if that's not the case, you have to know how — you have to know how to make the decisions that follow. I think that's also really important. Yes. [49:06.1] And perhaps a word on culture. How do you personally maintain a strong culture at Cuure today? Have you got any tips? It's true that it can feel a bit abstract sometimes to some people. Yes, concretely, what do you actually do? Concretely, what do we— What do we actually do? We hold values days. [49:25.3] Right. I don't know, to give you an example. We hold values days where we always — we do this roughly twice a year. We make sure that the whole team — it's a sort of assessment of our values, our existing values, what they consider still to be fully relevant and in place or not — How it translates for them, for their team? [49:50.0] Whether they use it or not? In short, we have values, we have a manifesto for those values in terms of how they're applied. Yes. So we'll gauge all of that and put it a bit under pressure, and we'll see if things shift. And it has generated certain evolutions, certain adjustments. [50:07.4] So for instance, that's one example of things — we always try to refer back to them. Yes. What does that mean? It means that sometimes, when we have difficult decisions where we're not sure how to come down, etc., we say: "Right, how can we invoke our values to work out what feels right for us?" [50:22.5] Sometimes they can pull in different directions. We have this culture, this way of operating that's extremely customer-driven, but at the same time we're extremely data-driven. Sometimes, actually, the purely rational, logical and pragmatic side can be somewhat at odds. Yes. [50:40.7] But it's important — it's interesting because it creates precisely that kind of questioning. Yes. What else do we do in a very practical sense? We always include, during onboarding — for consumers, for new team members joining us. Yes. We always have a meaningful session lasting several hours on culture and values. [50:59.9] I don't know, in the recruitment process, it's something that comes through all the time. We're very clear about it. We have a dedicated interview in the recruitment process for that. Right, OK. We hold — we hold monthly check-ins with all employees — Yes. [51:18.1] Everyone, thirty minutes, which we call TBs — touch bases — Without laptops, without anything, just feedback sessions. And then afterwards, we — myself and the managers, with their teams — consolidate all of that and say: "Right, are there any trends? Are there things we need to take into account to make adjustments?" [51:37.9] So yes. Yes. I think that's a lot of what we do. Yes, really interesting. Really interesting. It's perhaps something we tend to undervalue, I think, quite often. Yes, it's not... In fact, it's a subject — as you said — that can be perceived as a bit woolly. [51:56.6] And sometimes it is, because everyone knows you need to have some sort of culture more or less. And then sometimes you do it a bit half-heartedly. Yes. And that's not the end of the world, because there can be cultures where it isn't necessarily a central feature. [52:14.9] Why not? I mean, I think it's wrong to believe there's one perfect culture. There are companies with very specific cultures. I don't know — Alan has a very specific culture — which is a very different culture from the culture of — well, let me take examples a bit more well-known than Cuure. But that doesn't mean it's right or wrong. [52:32.2] What is important, though, is that it lives and breathes, and that when people join a company, they're aware of that culture and feel comfortable within it, and conversely, that that culture is maintained and nurtured — even if that's something of a pleonasm. [52:52.7] There you go. I think that's something genuinely key. Yes, absolutely. Right, last few questions before — Before we're thrown out... It's already three o'clock. I was wondering — what's the next step for Cuure? [53:08.6] Right... Blimey... Well, there are loads! I was talking about focus earlier, but there are loads. No, listen — right now, we're genuinely in a phase where we're coming out of... We have precisely all the extrapolation I mentioned earlier of our market understanding and consumer understanding, which has led us to broadly five major innovations. [53:31.1] We've launched two of them and there are three more to come. So right now, we're very focused on that. Right. And we're also very focused on our ability to expand the range of consumers who are ours, and to respond in the most precise way possible — with these innovations, but always with personalisation at the core, obviously — to their challenges. [53:53.4] So we're very focused on that for now. Then there are the two other underlying elements. We're fairly present internationally, well, in Europe. Yes. For now. So that's something where, once all these innovations are out, we'll be accelerating. [54:09.9] And there's also the whole attention around pharmacy. We get a lot of inbound requests. We have a small presence in pharmacies, but very limited, because previously — doing personalisation made it quite complicated to bring into pharmacies. And we already had quite a lot on our plate. [54:25.6] Obviously with the innovations we now have, we're getting more and more requests — Yes. And it's something we want to structure a bit more. So really, the idea is primarily to continue to — to evolve the Cuure brand as a clear, credible, scientific brand — and not just in the marketing. [54:47.9] We want there to be concrete, tangible foundations behind it. The right products, the right innovations that address consumers' challenges efficiently and effectively — and in a measurable way, because if that's not the case, it doesn't interest us. And then to do that for as many people as possible across Europe, and on channels beyond the internet. Brilliant. [55:08.9] Well listen, we wish you all the very best, and thank you so much for joining us on the episode. Thank you very much.