[00:00.1] Actually, that's it, Amazon, that's it. It's really, the audience is already there. The, the need, the intention is there. It's just up to you to be printed, to be displayed and to convert on the other side. Hi Michael. Hi. Really pleased to be doing this episode together. Yeah, thanks for having me. [00:15.2] With great pleasure. So today, we're obviously going to talk about one of your favourite subjects, which is Amazon. Yeah. So, looking forward to learning everything you've been able to observe over these last, these last few years. Yeah. And also talking about Shapeheart and how you put Amazon at the heart of the strategy at Shapeheart. [00:34.3] And so, as usual, before we start, if you like, we can do a little true/false. Let's go. So, quick question, short answer. So, listen, let's go. Off we go. Amazon is today the best acquisition channel for a brand, physical, physical product. [00:51.6] That's false. Selling on Amazon necessarily means sacrificing your margins. That's false. A brand can depend on Amazon for 80% and remain healthy. And healthy, I'm not sure. I'll say that's false. The Amazon algorithm is more predictable than the Meta algorithm. [01:13.1] I'd tend to say yes. The honeymoon period is the most important moment in a product's launch. Yeah, that's true. We'll explain all that in a moment, don't worry. Amazon steals your customers. No. Without customer reviews, an Amazon listing doesn't take off. [01:32.4] That's true. Amazon SEO is simpler than Google SEO. That needs unpacking because it's changing very fast. Not especially, no. Not especially. The buy box is the only thing that matters. [01:48.1] No, it's not the only thing. It's very important, but it's not the only thing that matters. Amazon Prime is the best loyalty programme in the world. [01:57.5] That's a question I should be asking you. You're the expert on that. I don't know if it's the best, but they're strong, anyway. They're strong. Because we're happy to pay for it. Yeah. That, I'm going to have quite a few questions about that, yeah. Really interesting, their membership. [02:12.7] Yeah. Selling in physical retail and on Amazon necessarily creates tension on prices. No, no, that can be managed. It's difficult, but it's managed. OK. A product that works on Amazon will necessarily work on its own site. [02:30.4] Not always. Not always. It depends on quite a few other things besides the product itself. Yeah. Amazon fees are hidden and often underestimated. They're not hidden, but they're, they're tucked away properly, but they are underestimated, yeah, very often. [02:46.8] OK. Fulfilled by Amazon, so FBA for those in the know, is essential for scaling. Yeah, that's true. Influence is an effective lever for taking off on Amazon. Yes, that's even more true in Anglo-Saxon markets. [03:05.3] In five years, all product brands will have Amazon in their mix. Almost all, yeah. True loyalty is impossible when you sell on Amazon. No, it's much more technical, much harder, but there are things that can be done, yeah. [03:22.5] Wholesale destroys margins. Not at all. That's true, we're going to talk a lot about that too. Yeah, you know that's one of our two favourite subjects, and wholesale is very important for us too. Exactly. A reseller who slashes prices is more dangerous than a direct competitor. [03:40.8] There are times when that's indeed the case, absolutely. That's a thorny subject, I imagine. Yes. Price control, we can talk about that, yeah. Physical retail and Amazon cannot coexist. On the contrary, they coexist really well. [03:57.9] And that's going to be increasingly the case. OK. What works in France necessarily works in Europe. Absolutely not. We like to say Europe, we're all cousins, we all have the same-- No, no, it's-- from one country to another, it can change radically, yeah. [04:13.8] Yeah. There's just, twenty-- more than twenty languages and legislations that- Yeah, even just between the south and north of France, there can be, quite different consumption patterns. So, in Europe, it's even, even more the case, yeah. [04:29.2] Amazon is the best tool for testing a foreign market without taking the risk. I don't know if it's the best, but anyway, it's a very good tool for doing it, yeah. Germany is the hardest e-commerce market in Europe. [04:44.3] I, I, I'm not su-- Honestly, I don't know. In any case, I can say that we didn't manage to succeed in Germany. That's a certainty. Yeah, I find that hard. I find it hard, but I'm not convinced it's easier than the UK, for example- ...which isn't an easy market either. Yeah. I sort of put them in the same basket, yeah. [05:00.9] OK. It's better to excel in one market than to be average in five. Yes, completely. Great. Well listen, brilliant. There are loads of things I'd have liked to dig into, you know. I tried to play along. Don't worry, we'll come back to plenty, plenty of sections of the episode in detail. [05:19.1] But, so, already, can you introduce yourself for those who don't know you yet, Yeah, of course ...Shapeheart, who you are So my name's Michael Weisz. I'm an entrepreneur. I co-founded Shapeheart with my business partner Antoine about ten years ago now. At Shapeheart, we make accessories in the world of cycling, motorcycling and running, mainly phone mounts, to put on your bike handlebars, a running armband with a magnetic concept that lets you access your phone very easily. [05:50.9] Which we launched about ten years ago and, we're a brand that does a bit under 4 million in revenue with the specificity of selling both in shops, which is our main channel- The second is Amazon and the third is our e-commerce site. [06:08.8] And we have, well it wasn't the case when we launched, but now, we're becoming a bit of an oddity since we have an average basket that's quite, quite low, you know. We're around 30 euros and with a repurchase rate that's also very low since you buy a phone mount, it's guaranteed for 10 years. There you go. So, in terms of business model, that's not really the norm any more, which forces us to make quite a few changes, but that's roughly what we do. [06:31.1] And alongside that, I do quite a bit of content around Amazon, marketplaces, with a newsletter on LinkedIn, and-- I also have a physical event. And the aim is a bit to, to grow the ecosystem around, around Amazon knowledge. [06:47.8] Not much of a business model, not even. It's just, just, I don't know, something I've always done in my previous life too. I had, back then, blogs on sports marketing, that sort of thing. So I've always done a lot of, either teaching, or writing, or, it's something I like doing. [07:03.9] And I find it's a hack that people underestimate because, when you don't understand something, teaching it or sharing it remains the best way to learn, you know. You don't want to look like an idiot. So, you dig in and, and mechanically, you learn, you know. Yeah, that's clear. It's true that I think it's a good, a good recommendation for learning a subject, there's nothing better than, than teaching it, that's clear. [07:26.2] And so, maybe to come back to the contributions of your different channels. Yeah. I was saying that wholesale, in the end, was the biggest overall. Yeah, it's the biggest. Well it's always the same thing between volume and value, you have to be careful. OK. Since when you sell on your own site, you sell at full price. [07:43.3] With wholesale, there's the whole cascade of margin for all the intermediaries. But in volume, we'll do 70, a good 70% in wholesale. Yeah, OK, yeah. You see, broadly speaking, it's 70 wholesale, 20% Amazon, and even 25% Amazon, and the rest on the site, you see. [08:01.1] Yeah. So it's really- You've got 5,000 resellers, is that right, today Yeah, exactly. So for us, it's mainly Europe. When we were talking about Germany, it's the same. E-commerce and physical retail, it's the same, the way of doing things is very different. So, we're, we have about 25 countries and it's mainly Europe. [08:16.5] We do a little bit in Japan, in Korea, but that, that remains more marginal. Right. So European countries, yeah. OK. And how did you come up with the idea of, of creating Shapeheart Did it come from a personal problem or... It came, so it came from my business partner, who, who started working on it in 2016, which was actually, the story is, it comes out of, of running. [08:41.0] OK. So the principle is, basically, people start running to lose weight. 2015, 2016, that's the first, first running wave, that was it. There you go. Plus, there wasn't yet this, this gym hype, the Basic-Fits, Fitness Parks. [08:58.0] It wasn't at all, ten years ago, there weren't as many. And so the best, best way to lose weight was to run. Except that, actually, if you want to maximise your weight loss, you have to run at a heart rate that's quite low, even very low, and that's quite, I won't say counter-intuitive, but it's, it's not natural. [09:16.3] We tend to run faster thinking "The faster I run, the more fat I'll burn" Which is completely false, but... And so at that time, to measure your heart rate, you had the first watches, but they cost 500, 600 euros, and weren't very reliable. [09:32.0] And so, in fact, the, the reasoning behind it was to say "I'm going to integrate it into a running armband" And that gives a reading that's more, that's much more reliable. And on top of that, it cost a lot less. Because it's a product that came out at about a hundred euros when we launched it. OK. And and actually, when we started that product, we thought "OK, that's cool." [09:49.5] "We can send the heart rate to any app, but behind that, we can't access the phone" And so that's where the development of the magnetic concept came in- OK ...which we patented and then rolled out across the different products. Because when you run, after a while, your knees hurt, your hips hurt. So, you switch to either swimming or cycling. [10:07.1] Yeah. We put it into cycling. And once we put it into cycling, handlebars are handlebars. And people told us "But it holds on a motorbike too. Test it, we'll see" And you see, we rolled it out a bit, we pull the threads as we go along. Brilliant. And in the early days, I think I saw somewhere that the, the first homemade prototypes were made with fabric, magnets, it was a bit DIY. [10:31.4] Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's still a bit like that actually. OK. When we develop a product, we do it-- so now, we do a lot of 3D printing. But basically, we identify a product, we do two or three scribbles, to try to, to see a bit what it could look like. [10:48.5] We do 3D prototyping on things, most of the time it breaks very quickly, but it lets you, visualise, it, take shape. And once we have something, we think "OK, this could work" We send it, in this case, to China, where we're really going to develop sturdier prototypes and really... [11:05.0] But it's still the case, yeah, we do rough-and-ready prototypes. If you come to our offices, we always have, we always have machines, we always have things to test the magnets, the vibrations. And yeah, yeah, always. Excellent. And so, Amazon, in the end, in Shapeheart's life, did it come naturally at the start, go-to-market or It came first right from the launch, actually. [11:27.2] Me, in my, in my previous experience, I worked for, sporting goods teams. So I was already in physical products with a large distribution in shops. And, and I worked notably for a group that was German, in the French subsidiary. [11:43.3] So Amazon was already very present. So I think I made my first Amazon sale in 2000, I think it was 2011. Yeah. And actually, I understood straight away. For me, there were two things. There was one issue, which was customer reviews. Because we all know, on our own sites, even Trustpilot, it's, it's, it's rubbish. [12:02.0] If you like, if you pay, you can remove your negative reviews. So Yeah That might not please them, but it's the reality. On our-- the reviews we receive, we can do what we want with them, we can moderate them. So, that didn't really make sense. And, and on Amazon, yes, there are Chinese sellers who manage to cheat, whatever you like, but it's getting harder and harder. [12:20.9] And if you're a real brand, you can't cheat, otherwise your account gets suspended. Yeah. So for me, that was my first premise, saying "Customer reviews are important" And the second was internationalisation. Since shipping a parcel from France to Germany, to... it costs a fortune, especially when you're selling products at 30 quid. [12:36.4] Yeah. And FBA, Fulfilment by Amazon, costs you less than your own site. So, that's, that was the two criteria that meant, no, we're going to launch on Amazon right from the start, and then we'll see what happens. The, the cost of, the cost of setting up, it's... [12:53.1] OK, it takes a bit of time, but it's not as massive as all that. Yeah. You have to understand the ecosystem a bit, but it's not, it doesn't take tens of thousands of euros to, when you already have your stock, to launch on Amazon, you know. It's true that there, you're talking about customer reviews, FBA. It's true that Amazon really is a channel in its own right, an ecosystem- Yeah, absolutely ...unique. [13:13.1] And for those, precisely, who don't know anything about it, a bit like Amazon muggles, could you describe the ecosystem for- Yeah. Actually, the thing that's most important to understand about Amazon is that it's a search engine. Yeah. So that's a big difference compared to Meta, where you go, on Meta, you make your creatives, video, static. [13:31.4] It works, you go, you can target very cold audiences and you can, you can create a need. The need doesn't exist, you publish your, you push your videos, people discover the product, and, and it works. On Amazon, that's not the case at all. People type keywords. You see, in our case, bike phone mount, motorbike phone mount, they already know what they're looking for. [13:51.0] And that, that's, for me, that's the most important thing, is that you're speaking to an audience that's, lukewarm, hot, call it what you like, that's looking for that product, they've already identified their need. And so your job is going to be to be visible. Because when someone types the keyword, you need to, you need to appear on the results page, on the, the SERP. [14:11.6] And you're going to need to convert. And that's where it's very different too. It's the-- if I go through it very quickly. So it's a search engine. And the second point is conversion. Conversion, you can't just do nice lifestyle visuals. No, people don't know you. They don't know the brand, they typed the keyword, you came up. [14:27.9] So you need to be able to convert with just visuals. That's why often, the visuals on Amazon, you say "Yeah, it's not very pretty, there's text on it" Yeah. but that's because actually, you always have to think "OK, the person, they're on the tube at 6pm, 7pm or on the bus, like that, squashed, scrolling on their phone." [14:45.1] They're going to spend 30 seconds on your, on your product page. They need to be able to understand your product page in 30 seconds with five visuals. Yeah. It's not at all the same approach as on a website. That's clear. Whereas on a website, you see, we must have a session duration that's three to four times longer than on Amazon. Yeah. So that's, that's something-- actually, that's it. [15:01.3] Amazon, that's it. It's really, the audience is already there. The, the need, the intention is there. So it's up to, it's up to you just to, to be printed, to be displayed and to convert on the other side. And so you were saying, typically, there's a bit of a-- well, yeah, compared to your website, you've got a whole, a whole homepage, products, reviews, everything you like to convince the customer. [15:23.2] There, you've just got a few visuals- Yeah ...on the product page and you need to move fast. Are there other differences compared to a B2C site, but also compared to other marketplaces, like Cdiscount, for example Well, compared to a so-called B2C site, the other difference is that you're in an open ecosystem on Amazon. [15:42.5] When you're on the Shapeheart page, you can see competitors' products. OK, yeah. That hurts. But that's the reality. So, so you see, you're really in an open ecosystem. You're in an ecosystem too with, guarantees for the consumer that are incredible. [16:00.6] So that's why your conversion rate will be much higher on Amazon. For us, on our product categories, you're going to be around 10, 12% conversion. I'd love to have that on Shopify. Yeah. We're a long way off that. Because, because you know that if there's the slightest delivery issue, you get refunded, if you don't like the product, you can send it back, even if it's opened, damaged, you get refunded. [16:20.6] I mean, it's very easy. Yeah. So that's, that's a, that's a big change compared to a website, compared to other marketplaces. Everything's more advanced, whether it's on the back-office side, front-office side, on advertising management, on... [16:38.3] But for me, if I had to give just one criterion, it would be volumes. Yeah. Actually, Amazon, in terms of volume- the ratio is 1 to 100 or 1,000 in our vertical. Right, OK. Yeah, there are verticals where you just can't compete. [16:54.6] Yeah. It's, it's the, the volume, the traffic they draw in means that Amazon is colossal. For us, there are loads of marketplaces we've closed down. You, you mentioned Cdiscount, we don't sell on there any more. Right, OK. The, the back-office isn't as well made. Um, and on top of that, the volumes, we had a ratio, but it's, it's even more than 1 to 100, you know. [17:14.4] Yeah, yeah, it's huge. We weren't selling anything. So, so there's no point multiplying. We focus on what we know how to do. And so for me, yeah, the main differences are there, yeah. OK. And are there any misconceptions, you know, a myth about Amazon that everyone has a bit in mind It's true that especially, I think in France, Amazon is a bit the big bad wolf. [17:35.1] Yeah, well- Certain, certain- Yeah ...consumers anyway. Yeah, yeah, it's been like that for a long time. It's the big bad wolf. If you're a responsible brand, you shouldn't go on Amazon. Yeah. That's-- well, that's my point of view, that's rubbish. But no, we're in France, the people who work in Amazon's warehouses aren't whipped, you know. [17:52.7] I mean, yes, it's a tough job, but like there are plenty of other tough jobs, and there's a legal framework, it's regulated. And companies of that size are scrutinised. But really, we need, we need to stop it, you know. We need to stop it. That's-- so all that side, they exploit people. [18:11.0] There are delivery drivers who, who deliver at weekends. Yeah, but well, shops are open on Sundays and we, as consumers, demand it because during the week, we work. So well, there you go. Everyone's entitled to their opinion after that. In any case, they respect the law. There's, there's zero issue on that. So, for me, that's a non-debate. And then, the eco-friendly side, whatever you like, there's-- yes, we can discuss free returns, that sort of thing. [18:33.0] No problem. The reality is that since, we've had, let's take out the, the 2021, 22 years, coming out of COVID where everything, everything exploded. 23, 24, 25, everyone's struggling a bit. Everyone's looking for growth drivers. Yeah. [18:48.1] Made in France, ecology, Amazon, they're subjects we're now dealing with and going for. I see it myself with lots of brands contacting me about it. No, you have to go for it, you have to do it properly, you have to... But so the misconception that they're the big bad guys, that's, that's rubbish. [19:03.7] It's a, it's a fantastic tool. There's plenty to review. Yes, it's difficult, there's a lot going on, but it remains a great channel. And, the other, the other misconception which is a bit the opposite, is saying "Yeah, Amazon's easy. I plug in my fe-- I hook up my flow, you know" Yeah. [19:19.8] You've got your, you've got your Shop-- I mean, you've got your product feed connected to a Shopify, a Shopping Feed, a Channable, whatever you like. "I plug in my thing and it'll happen on its own" Yeah. No. No, that, that doesn't work. It's-- in itself, it's not very complicated. It's, it's not very complicated. [19:35.3] You, you take a few hours to understand how it works and, and you'll manage and it's very good to get started. But there you go, that's a bit the two things. No, Amazon isn't the big bad wolf. And two, it's not just plug and play. What else can I say You have to advertise on Amazon. [19:51.9] If you don't advertise, you won't get there, or not any more. It's becoming very difficult not to advertise on Amazon. OK. and that's where, yes, once again, it's a fantastic tool, but in terms of profitability, you need to be very careful because you can quickly get crushed, and have your P&L be, be bad. [20:08.4] So, you need to monitor it closely. But I'd say, it's the same thing on Shopify, between acquisition, between your returns, between... Well, if you don't calculate anything, you get, you get eaten alive, you know. So, yeah, I'd say, I'd say these, these three points are, are important. [20:24.1] Yeah, definitely, yeah. And, it's true that the margins issue is a big, a big chunk on Amazon. We'll be able to come back to that in a moment. But just before that, how do you manage the complementarity between, Yeah ...precisely your website and Amazon As you said, it's two completely different things. [20:41.2] Yeah. We manage it globally, that is to say what we're going to look at, so the wholesale side, we set that aside. Yeah. and then, everything we spend, so, on Meta, Google, TikTok, influence and Amazon, we try to-- we calculate it globally. [20:59.1] That is to say we put all our online spend together, and opposite, we put all our online revenue. OK. So we're going to put our site, Amazon and the two or three marketplaces we control. And we're going to manage it, globally like that, with an MER or a, a total ROAS, whatever you want to call it. [21:17.1] Yeah. And then, we're going to dig segment by segment to see a bit what's happening. Right. But basically, we don't really care, well at least until now we didn't care, about knowing whether the sale was made on, platform A, B or C. [21:33.0] As long as the customer finds the product and buys it- Yeah ...and overall, we're profitable, that's enough for us. That way of working suited us well too because, as I said, we had very little repeat purchase. So, so that suited us fine. The aim is going to be to, to recalibrate a bit the weight of each, of each channel because, because we're working on a new range where we're going to have a lot more repeat purchase. [21:59.9] OK. And there, it's, it's going to be interesting to give more weight to our Shopify. Yeah. And the aim is going to be to grow. Actually, it's to stabilise Amazon and grow the rest. Right, OK. Yeah. Super clear. And so it's true that being present on Amazon is one thing. [22:15.5] After that, to really perform, it's a whole, a whole trade in itself. Yes. And so one of the first things, when you think about it, is maybe the, the listing, then. Yes. What's ultimately the difference between a good and a bad listing In the listing, you have two points. [22:32.7] It's both upstream, product selection, since actually, Yeah ...not putting all your products at the same time on Amazon. No, because again, there are products that won't work because the need isn't identified by people. So really selecting properly the products you're going to sell on Amazon, that's the first step. [22:51.7] And once you've done that selection, that selection, you do it on plenty of criteria, notably margins. Yeah. What's important is whether there's already a market there, on logistics costs, on average basket. There you go, you've got plenty of criteria to take into account. [23:07.9] OK. And then, you've got the listing itself, which is the product page. And that, this product page, I'd say, it's almost easier now than before, where, now, Amazon is, is stuffed with AI, so with Rufus, which is still called Rufus in Europe, but is called Alexa for Shopping in the US. [23:26.5] Yeah. They haven't made the name change in Europe yet. It's coming. OK. And there, basically, Amazon scrapes the whole of your data, whether textual or images, to understand the product, who it's aimed at, in what use case, for what persona, and can answer all these questions. [23:42.9] And so your listing, you're going to create it that way, so with a title that's now very short. That comes from-- that's going to take effect in July, where, the, the title is very short, so 75 characters. [24:00.0] With a few bullet points, but that people don't read. So there, it's really a bit of SEO, of indexing. And then, it's the whole visual side. So you've got, the main image and the product images, a video. And then, you've got two pieces of content that are quite important. That's the brand story. [24:15.4] It's a carousel of, of thumbnails where you can talk about your brand, your brand story, brand story, as its name suggests. And then, you've got the A+ page. And the A+ page, is, is additional content where there, you've got modules. [24:31.5] It can be photos, it can be videos, it can be comparison tables, it can be that sort of thing where you're going to add either more info, or reassure people, or do some cross-selling. So it's really a, a big job on that. And, to finish on this part, what's important is obviously to do, to do your listing properly, but above all to A/B test it constantly. [24:52.9] OK. And that, you've got the tools within Amazon to do it. And, and the aim is that there are A/B tests running constantly because, Amazon, it's a bit like on, it's a bit like on Meta, that is to say sometimes, you make really great products, and it doesn't work. You make a rubbish thing on iPhone and it takes off. [25:09.0] Yeah. Well on Amazon, you have a bit of that side. So yes, you don't want to cheapen your brand image. You want to have a branding that's a bit nice, but at the same time, the reality is the numbers. And so doing regular A/B tests to, to see which image converts best, that, that's something you have to do consistently, yeah. [25:25.4] OK. And so OK, let's imagine you've structured your listing well. Your product's now live on Amazon. And we often hear there's a honeymoon period- Yeah ...as it's called. Can you describe a bit, explain a bit to us what, what that is Yeah, the honeymoon, actually, is when your product goes live, Amazon's going to push you, put you forward, quite high in the algorithm. [25:51.3] And it's quite clever to do that. That is to say if you-- if Amazon didn't do that, it would always be the same products at the top because you've got 50,000 reviews, you launched 10 years ago, you've got the monopoly of seniority, you know. Yeah. And that's not good for business. So Amazon, that's why sometimes, when you type in a search, you'll very quickly see a product with 30 reviews or 50 reviews. [26:09.9] You think "That's odd" No, it's just been launched and it's being given its chance. And so it's... Does it last 30 days, 45 days Well, we don't really know, it's a bit vague. But what's certain is that at the sta-- at the start, you get pushed. And that period, you have, you have to make the most of it. [26:25.5] Generally, that's when you're also going to put in quite a bit of advertising budget. Yeah. To really make a lot of sales. OK. Rank. And then, you're going to try to maintain, you're going to lower your ad budget gradually. OK. And increase your profitability. [26:41.3] Right, OK. So yeah, don't wait for the end of the honeymoon to put the budget in... No, it's-- No, you do it straight away. Right, OK. You do it straight away. That's, that's what-- People don't really realise, but if you type phone mount bike on Amazon. Of the first 20 products, you'll have 12, 13 that are sponsored. [27:00.9] Yeah. And even more so, in some niches, it's even more, even more than that. Yeah, OK. Yeah. Precisely, how do you structure your campaigns, so Sponsored Products Is there a bit of a logic to lay out Yeah, so, on campaigns, you've got Sponsored Product. So that's the little thumbnails. [27:16.6] Yeah. You can-- There's no creative. That's the advantage. You Yeah. There's no creative. It reuses your thumbnail, your, your main image, your title, your stars and your price. Yeah. So it's very easy. You've got Sponsored Brand. That's the big banners, either video, or with a nice image. [27:32.3] And that, that's only for brands that can access it. And then, you've got display, which is a bit the equivalent of retargeting, broadly speaking. So your sponsored, your Sponsored Product which is going to represent 80% of your budget, you're going to spend it on keywords or on products. [27:49.6] And that, actually... My advice is not to overthink the Ads side. You've got plenty of tools that let you manage your Ads via algorithms and it works really well. Yeah. And you don't need to spend days and days and days adjusting your bids down to the penny every morning. [28:07.6] Because actually, you see, I've got, about twenty products in five countries with about twenty keywords. Yeah. If I had to change my bids every day, actually, I'd do nothing else. So you have to let-- And besides, a robot, that's typically what robots do better than us, you see. Managing lots of data down to the penny, they'll always be better. [28:23.6] Yeah. So the idea is, is to do, yes, 80% Sponsored Products, a bit of Sponsored Brand and a tiny bit of display. OK. That, that works really well. And, and where you can test things is on Sponsored Products, where there, you can test different creatives. [28:39.8] What I like to do is take what we did on Meta and put it on Amazon. OK. Lazy technique. But at the same time, there's no reason, if you've spent several thousand on Meta and that's what works, why it wouldn't work on Amazon Ultimately, they're the same customers. Yeah, of course. So, so we like doing that. [28:55.1] OK. But on, on advertising, yeah, you have to stay-- There's no point having overly complicated setups. When you're starting out, you have to take it easy. OK. We've got these main keywords, we've got automatic campaigns running, that work really well. And, and what I like about the tools is that it lets you set your campaigns for profitability. [29:14.2] OK. You say "I want a ROAS of so much" Yeah. And it'll optimise for that. And I think that when you're starting out, that's not bad. Yeah. Because it lets you, get the machine going and you don't overthink it. You don't tell yourself "I'm going to mess up spending X thousand per day" or whatever. You know it won't exceed your profitability. [29:30.6] OK, yeah. Yeah, that's not bad, yeah. And what do you set as your ROAS target at the start Three, four Well, on Amazon, we talk more about ACOS and TACOS. OK. And, and that, by the way, that's an important subject. Basically, why is advertising important on Amazon It's that Amazon doesn't really distinguish much. [29:49.5] It does make a distinction, but broadly speaking, the more you sell, the higher you climb in the algorithm. Yeah. But if you make a sale that comes from advertising, it still moves you up in the algorithm. OK. Maybe less than a sale that comes from, from external traffic, influence, Google, Meta. Yeah. But still, it moves you up. [30:05.5] So, the more you spend on ads, the more you'll climb in the ranking. OK. So that's it-- and that's the big difference compared to Shopify. On Amazon, the more you sell, the more you sell. Yeah. And you shouldn't forget that. And that's why we always distinguish between your sponsored sales and your organic sales- Right ...on Amazon. [30:22.8] And so ACOS is, what, what you spend to make your sponsored sales. And TACOS is what you spend to make your sales overall, sponsored plus organic. Right, OK. There you go. So I know people like to ask themselves "So, what's the rule" Actually, it depends. [30:40.4] If your brand is very, very strong, very powerful outside Amazon, you're going to try to have an ad budget that's under 10%. OK. If you're like me in a market where actually I've only got Chinese sellers, factories selling directly- ...hugely competitive, then, under 30%, that's tough, you know. [30:59.0] Yeah. And we come back to the initial subject, which is, you need to have margins. And we've got products where we're, we're completely stuck because the margins aren't good enough. Yeah. So you see, an-- and so, the best choice is to say "No, actually, these products, I won't put them on Amazon because there's no point anyway." [31:16.4] And, and, you see, it's really, We come back to the issues you have overall in e-commerce with margin structure, weight of logistics, average basket, LTV, ...the, the classics I'm interrupting this episode to introduce you to Loyaly, the platform, you'll have guessed it, behind the production of this podcast. [31:37.5] Loyaly is a post-purchase engagement platform that lets you unlock the full potential of each of your customers. Specifically, Loyaly helps you create ultra-personalised post-purchase journeys via more than 40 engagement mechanics: loyalty, referral, customer reviews, UGC, stories, social sharing, etc. [31:56.4] All triggered at the right moment, for the right person, on the right channel. The result, you increase your LTV while reducing your acquisition costs. And above all, Loyaly connects to your entire marketing stack to orchestrate a unified end-to-end customer experience. [32:12.2] Shopify, PrestaShop, Klaviyo, Gorgias, Cegid, it's all there. Today, we already support more than 500 brands like Dijo, Hydratise, Volcom, Venom or Beauté Privée, to name just a few. If you want to find out more, I'll put the link to the site in the description. [32:27.3] Right, let's get back to the episode. Well yeah, listen, really keen to talk more about margins in a moment. Yeah. And, just before that, there were two, two other subjects that, that interested me, you mentioned earlier, reviews. Yes. So you were saying it's still a bit of a sign of trust versus- Yeah ...the usual nonsense, reviews on websites, obviously, which are always very good. [32:49.9] And so how do you see that Do you think it's more of a lever or ultimately a constraint I also know that Amazon are very strict about, the, the legitimacy of, of reviews. Are there any pirate techniques Yeah, there are pirate techniques, but if you do them, your account will get closed. [33:07.5] So you mustn't do it. Yeah. No, no, honestly, there are, there are things you shouldn't joke about. And and customer reviews, that's still, that's, yeah, for us, it's not a subject we joke about because... Yes, it's frustrating. [33:23.1] You'll get 1, 2, 3% in the best case, of people who'll leave a review. And they'd rather leave a review when things go wrong than when things go well. Or the famous review "great product, 3 out of 5" Yeah. You see, which is very frust-, which is very frustrating. Yeah. But no, actually, the volume means you'll get reviews gradually. [33:42.2] You've got programmes, when you launch a new product, you've got the Vine programme which lets you, OK ...you can send your product to 30 consumers- OK ...selected by Amazon who'll leave a review. That, on products like ours, that works well. Yeah. If you make food supplements, things with a strong promise, you need to be very careful because the customer's going to test it, they're going to test it for a week, and think "Well, I didn't feel anything" Yeah. [34:03.8] Well that's normal. Actually, it takes two to three months for a course of treatment to work. It's, it's, quite difficult. So there are products where you need to be very careful, where you can get a bit, you can get a bit caught out. OK. So reviews, that's what's frustrating. [34:19.0] Very few people are going to leave them. On the other hand, I find they have real value on Amazon. It's, it's something I notice fairly frequently, that is to say between your Shopify rating and your Amazon rating, from one brand to another, you can have between 0.3 and 0.6 gap. [34:35.1] Right, OK. Which is huge, you know. Yeah, definitely. 0.6, that's huge, you know. Yeah. Some brands have even pulled out of Amazon because of that. You see, a brand like Air Up, back in the day. Air Up, they pulled out of Amazon because they were getting slaughtered. Yeah. They were pouring loads into influencer marketing. [34:50.3] Yeah. Everyone was saying "It's amazing, it's amazing" Yeah, yeah. I was a mug, I bought some, I gave some as gifts. And honestly, I'm sorry, but the product, it's... There's a lot of discomfort because you swallow air. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well yeah, but so when you swallow air, obviously, you have problems afterwards, you know. [35:07.3] Well yes, it's mechanical. Yeah. And that, actually, the reviews on Amazon, that's what it was. And actually, they pulled the products. And so then, they came back with a new version. Now, I think there are new products back on, on Amazon. And so you have to be very careful about that. And that's why that's one of the prerequisites, that on Amazon, an average product doesn't cut it. [35:25.5] You see, we had a phone mount for rear-view mirrors that worked really well, but it had a small flaw, it could rotate a bit. Well you see, on Amazon, we were rated 4. Yeah. The next version, it's rated 4.4. Version 4, we discontinued it. We took it off, we, we stopped the product. [35:43.4] Yeah. And that, that's part of the things you don't have on your own site. Because people like the brand, because you've got customer service that's there, because... So there you go. And what's very difficult is that you can't tell people either "Yes, leave a review and I'll give you a little gift" You can never suggest a positive review. [36:00.1] Yeah, yeah. So yes, it's frustrating, but actually, actually, that's how it works Yeah. That's how it works. We sometimes see QR codes, you know, on- Yeah ...little flyers, things like that, but that's to be avoided at all costs Exactly. Well, I know some people do it with "leave us a review, full stop" OK. [36:17.8] Yeah. Normally, that's borderline. But well, you haven't suggested anything, that's fine, you, you, you can do that. OK. You can do that. Yeah. But we, you see, on our-- we ask for reviews, from people who go through customer service, on-- but we don't send them to Amazon, we send them to Google, you see, to Google, to Trustpilot, because, because there, you can do it and there's no problem. [36:41.5] Yeah, OK. And honestly-- yeah, honestly, on that, leaving it to the Chinese to cheat on the, on the- Yeah. that's not a good idea. Yeah. That's not a good idea. And even on that, to finish on reviews, what's fairly new, a few weeks old, even now, before-- before, you had variations, you sell, food supplements, you sell, chocolate, vanilla, strawberry protein. [37:01.2] Yeah. The three were merged. They summed up the reviews. Now, it's separate. OK. Because actually, your chocolate flavour can be incredible and your strawberry flavour very bad. Definitely. And it's not right that there's an average rating. And that, they're in the process of, that's, that's... And that, that's also done a lot of harm to quite a few unscrupulous sellers. [37:17.3] Because you'd sell, I don't know, you'd sell a pen for €1, you'd have five, well five-star reviews out of thousands of reviews. And then, you'd merge that with, precisely, your remote-control car. Yeah. But your reviews, they're for a pen, and you're selling remote-control cars, you see. [37:32.5] doesn't make sense, yeah. And, and th-- there you go, so that, they're tackling, they're really tackling that properly now. So it's becoming, it's becoming pretty clean, I think, Amazon, on that. OK. Interesting. And are there any essential tools in your Amazon stack Yeah. Now, there's Claude Code. [37:49.9] But actually Amazon is an ecosystem where Amazon, the back-office is a bit like the front-end. That is to say it's ugly, but it works. Yeah. But it's not very digestible. You see, I was telling you about ads, you have to click six times to re-- reach the reports. It's, honestly, it's unbearable. You download CSVs, you have to concatenate them. [38:06.6] Yeah. So now, it's much easier with Claude Code, but there are still tools, that are very important. So you've got everything to do with keyword analysis to get the volumes, so, everything like Helium 10, Data Dive, Jungle Scout, that works. [38:22.6] Now, Amazon is giving more and more tools, um, within Amazon itself. OK. So you can start doing things. And then, I find that on the, on the margin analysis side, you see, a tool like Seller Board, it costs 20 dollars a month, it gives you an incredible P&L analysis. [38:42.1] OK. That, that's great. Yeah. And then, now, I've got all my tools that we've built in-house with Claude Code. OK. That lets you scrape prices, buy boxes, stock. It's, it's incredible, honestly. Yeah. Honestly, it's incredible. For me, it's revolutionised the way I work on Amazon, over the last six months. [38:59.2] And we've cut quite a few tools, Yeah. Yeah. We've kept, we still work with M19 on the advertising side. OK. And, broadly speaking, that's about it Yeah. And before, you'd have had maybe four or five others. And before, I had four or five, yeah. Yeah, OK, yeah. That's a real, real subject, that, by the way, for all the, the software vendors, big blow over the last few months, yeah. [39:19.7] Yeah, that's clear. That's clear, that's clear. Right, we can finally tackle the, the topic, Margins. Number one, which is, the margins, exactly. Yeah. Because it's true that it's, an engine for growth, a new channel, plenty of advantages, etc. But you still need to be careful about profitability, from what I understand. [39:38.3] We were saying earlier that there were fees that were, hidden or more or less hidden, but in any case underestimated, that's for sure. What's your take on that Fees that are a bit- Basically- Underestimated in general. Basically, so in the fees, when you sell on marketplaces, you're going to have the commissions. [39:57.6] Which are on the VAT-inclusive price, not the pre-tax one. You see, those little lines like that. It's... yeah. Well yeah, but that's- 20%, you know. Yeah, exactly. That makes, that makes quite a difference. Then you'll have shipping fees. Which you'd have had anyway and which are often cheaper on Amazon than what you pay with, Colissimo or other carriers. [40:15.7] And then, you'll have storage, returns. You see, you've got lots of little lines like that. So you need, you need to be careful about that. But for me, on the margin side, selling on Amazon doesn't require more margin than selling on Shopify. [40:32.6] Because either way, you've also got fees, you've got Shopify fees, payment fees, you-- returns, you have those too. You're going to have, if you're not profitable on Shopify, it's unlikely you'll be profitable on Amazon. And, and the reverse is true too. [40:48.4] So, for me, it's more, with everything that's happening right now, with acquisition costs going up, with, actually, all our costs going up everywhere. Well, it's more where, it's more where you need to be careful. And I think, actually, your, your margin requirement is the same, it's the same, and it's the same in, in wholesale. [41:09.9] Since with wholesale, you've got your intermediaries. And if you don't have intermediaries, that means you've got a sales force, that means you're managing the logistics yourself. And that, that, that costs money, that impacts you. So, for me, it's, you can really, I don't make a particular distinction for Amazon. [41:26.9] Your margin structure should be the same everywhere. Yeah. OK. And, indeed, I think where people get it wrong, is that it's changed a lot over the last two, three years. Yeah. Before, you could get away with it, a product that cost you 10 quid, you could sell it for 40, including tax. That could work, especially on Amazon, it worked. [41:44.6] Advertising cost less, Amazon cost less. Now, that, that doesn't work any more. For us, that's the problem we have with certain products, our running products. Actually, they're still on Amazon because we have a product that's completely unique. But on the other hand, we can't spend on ads, you know. So it's very difficult to rank. [42:01.7] And so, so that's, that's more the, the reality. And I think people don't realise that, actually. Because ultimately, it's us consumers who pay, you know. Meta ads, TikTok ads, influencer marketing, we pay for it, it ends up in the final selling price, you know. Yeah, clearly. OK. So not necessarily big differences in terms of margin structure- No ...it needs to be the same as everywhere else. [42:20.4] No, no, you see, it's, And then, it depends how you're structured as an e-commerce brand. If you, if you manage, for example, you deliver Europe from France, well, there are even some countries where you'll be cheaper on Amazon. Yeah. If you've got a warehouse in each country, well yes, then you'll be more efficient. [42:39.2] So it depends a bit on the structure of each brand, but in any case, saying "I make less money on Amazon, I make less money on wholesale" that's-, that's not true. And the, the other point, to come back to the previous subject, is above all that, actually, everything feeds into each other. [42:55.6] Yeah, that's clear. Everything feeds into everything. We see it, there are products we've had listed in wholesale because we were number one on Amazon. OK. So actually, you see, and doing an attribution formula, well anyway you know what attribution is, it's a nightmare. But there, cross-channel attribution, that doesn't exist. [43:12.0] Yeah. So actually, you need to be careful about that too. You really need to be careful not to think of it in silos. No, actually, what happens on Shopify, works on Amazon and it has knock-on effects in retail, and there you go. So it's true it's hard, you know, because you don't have, you don't always have hard data, it's not scientific. [43:31.5] Yeah. You have to try to have that open-mindedness, you know. Yeah, completely. See things in a more holistic way- Yeah ...rather than really channel by channel. And, and so then, there's another subject which is stock management. Yeah. So that can be quite critical on Amazon, because if you have too much stock, then, naturally, you're a bit penalised. [43:51.3] Or in any case- Yeah ...on ranking, I imagine that- Actually, you're penalised in loads of places. On Amazon, on your stock, if you, if you've got too much, you're penalised because your storage fees go up. OK, yeah. If you don't have enough, you also get a penalty. Yeah. If you don't have enough stock, they penalise you. Yeah. And then, you've got the, you've got the ranking penalty part. [44:12.2] That is to say if you go out of stock- Yeah you plummet in the, in the algorithm. Yeah. And when your stock comes back, you have to regain your places. Yeah, OK. Wow. And so to regain your places, that means you have to reinvest. Yeah. And so actually, really, the number one commandment is to never go out of stock on Amazon. [44:29.2] Yeah. You lose really all the benefit of what you'd done. Now if you're very solid, you've been there for years, and you're out of stock for four, five days, you'll bounce back very quickly, no problem. Yeah, OK. If you're out for a month, that's a pain. And that, the problem, is that's what's very difficult. You see, we launched running accessories, this summer. [44:47.0] Right now, I'm out of stock currently. Yeah, that's awful. Yeah. So my whole launch is ruined, you know. Yeah. Damn. You see, I had, we had eight brilliant weeks and we sold much more than we'd planned. We had things flown in, which we normally never do. [45:03.4] And actually, I'm out of stock and the next restock isn't until September, well, end of August. Right, yeah. And so now I'm looking at eight weeks out of stock. Eight weeks out of stock. When I come back- I'm not starting from zero, but out of 10, I'm starting from two, you know. [45:20.0] Yeah. So, so you see, I, I have to spend more on ads again and I have to... And that, that's a bit of a pain. Yeah. And, and it's, and it's not easy to plan for. Yeah. You never know, is it really going to take off quickly, or not take off quickly. All it takes is for you to get the little "Amazon's Choice" number one badge and suddenly, it, it explodes. Well, that's the game. So stock, that's why sometimes, it's better to slow down, lower your budgets and make fewer sales, but not go out of stock. [45:41.5] Yeah, definitely. Rather than, than going out of stock and really doing that, the yo-yo, the up-and-down, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Because it's true that Amazon, ultimately, when you buy on there, it's true that one of the number one criteria is the reliability of the supply chain. So Yeah, that, that, we're less affected by that in France, in Europe. [45:58.3] In the US, depending on whether you're on the East or West Coast, you don't have the same delivery times. Yeah. And that's why you need to make sure your stock is spread out a bit everywhere because you could be number one in New York and not even be listed in Los Angeles. Right, OK. And that, and, and between a one-day delivery, a two-day delivery, your conversion isn't the same at all. [46:17.6] Yeah, clearly. There you go, that's where, yes, Amazon's got us used to bad habits. Yeah. It's-- and at the same time, we're also driving that demand, you see. We're the first to click on 24-hour delivery. You see, there's a thing with the, the heatwave that I've been following closely, everything to do with fans, air conditioners. [46:34.9] There, you've got products that are poorly rated, rated 3.5, but that sell hundreds of units a day just because they're the only products left in stock with 24, 48-hour delivery. It's mad. Whereas these products, normally, wouldn't even make page 2. [46:50.3] Because 3.5, you know, that's... Yeah, clearly. Yeah. Are there any classic mistakes, you know, that you make at the start and... Yeah, well, the classic mistakes, is, dumping all your products via a feed. [47:08.9] So, you've got loads of products, you can't manage them, you can't keep track. Yeah. You can't manage your product pages. So that, you see, that's the mistake, the one-size-fits-all approach that means, well, you're there, but nothing's very well done. [47:23.2] Not putting human resources on Amazon. Because that, believe it or not, there's, there's plenty of subjects you can't solve yourself. So you have to raise support tickets. And so you need time, you need people-- you can't do it with AI, that still, there's still a need for humans there. [47:38.6] Maybe that'll change, but for now, that's not the case. [47:45.3] And for me, the main mistake is not having, not having a clear strategy. That is to say, you see, do I allocate human resources How, what, what weight do I give and what, and what role do I give to Amazon in my strategy Because imagine, you're out of stock or you know your stock is going to sell out. [48:05.0] OK, that's great, but who do I give priority to The shop, my website, Amazon How do I incentivise my teams Because your e-commerce manager, if you slash your prices on Amazon, well that's going to cannibalise the site mechanically. So he, he won't be able to hit his targets. [48:21.5] Yeah. And you see, so that's, for me, that's really the, the first point, it's not to say "Let's go for it right now, it's now" No, either way, if you're not doing it now already, you won't be a month later either. Stop and think, what exactly do you want to do If you're not sure, that can also be a good approach. [48:38.5] There's-- I've, I've got one or two brands in mind who used Amazon as a showcase. "We don't want it to be a priority for us. We want it to be a showcase" OK. So we put three or four flagship products on and that's it. We do very little advertising, we're there, we take up the space, and and that's it. [48:57.3] And it makes 5, 10% of our revenue. If people look for us, they find us, but at least we don't leave the field open to our competitors. Yeah. But that, that works. You're not obliged to-- and for us, that's, we're not going to head that way with Shapeheart, but you see, it's still one of the topics to consider, saying we're going to separate our product ranges much more to have a range dedicated to wholesale and site, and products, notably our old range that we'll keep, that we'll leave for Amazon, where we can play around with prices, cut prices, run promotions, do that sort of more tactical stuff, a bit more, you know, really, yeah, tactical Amazon stuff, without harming anyone outside of, of Amazon. [49:38.6] Yeah, clearly. Clearly. And that, that's something we're seeing more and more. That's, that's one way of doing things, but that's why really, the name of the game, for me, is that the main mistake is not having a strategy. Yeah. I'm using the wrong word a bit, you know. Because sin-- and you've also got the case where brands go for it. [49:59.3] The brand's very strong, very well known. We go on Amazon, it's brilliant. You've got amazing performance. Except that actually, since you did everything wrong, all you're doing is cannibalising. Yeah. Yeah, so, here it is. So there, your Amazon Manager or your agency says "Look at our, our performance. Incredible." Yeah, yeah, incredible. [50:15.2] But actually, it's all the work we did elsewhere. So not incredible. Yeah, clearly. And that, that, that's a bit of a classic. OK, yeah. You, you've really cannibalised yourself completely, you know. Because you didn't separate things, because your content isn't good, because, you, you, actually, you're not monitoring what's happening on your brand and on generic keywords. [50:34.1] There you go, it's, it's a lot of common sense in the end. It's just that indeed, there's quite a lot of info in different places, so you have to, have to spend a bit of time on it, you know. So you need to put in resources. Yeah, clearly. Clearly, clearly. And I was wondering, when you want to launch a new product yourself, for example, now that you've got all these channels set up, do you have a bit of an initial framework Do you launch it first on your website to see if it works, to what extent it takes off- Yeah ...to anticipate a bit your Amazon stock afterwards Where does- It depends. [51:00.9] Honestly, it depends on the products. Yeah. We have products we launch for shops and our site. For example, the new range we're bringing out at the end of the year, that's 100% shop. OK, yeah. So, so there, we can't test anything beforehand. We do, yes, we do beta testers, we have focus groups. [51:18.6] You see, we do it beforehand, we present it. There you go, let's say traditional product development. And on the other hand, there are certain products we really launch for Amazon. OK. Typically for accessories, that sort of thing. Those are typically Amazon products. And sometimes, they do so well that we manage to get them into shops. [51:37.6] But you see, we still separate the two a bit, you know. Yeah, yeah. OK. That ties back to the earlier point, that you need, you need to have a clear strategy for what Amazon is for you. Yeah, clearly. And on Amazon, there's also a big subject, which is customer data. [51:55.2] Yes. So, for loyalty purposes, because ultimately, all that volume, it's because they're Amazon's customers and not really yours in the end. How do you handle that Do you have any, any tricks for, for example- Yeah, on that, on that, well, it's true on Amazon, but actually, it's true in shops too, you know. [52:15.9] Yeah. My customers who buy from Decathlon, from Intersport, they're not my customers. Yeah. That's-- and that's always been the case. And it's only the D2C brands, 100% D2C, who can afford that thinking. But 100% D2C, we've seen over the last few years Actually, you hit a glass ceiling, it's, it's- Yeah ...it doesn't work. [52:33.9] Well, it works a little bit, but if you really want to move up a level, for some brands, your ceiling is 2 million, 5, 10, 20, but you've got that ceiling. You can't... So, it's, I'm not saying it's a false debate, but but actually, it's the same everywhere. [52:50.4] And that, that's something brands forget, is that you've got a bra-- you've got a brand loyalty that exists, but you've also got a loyalty to the retailer. Yeah. And we see it, I was telling you about Decathlon. We know there are customers who are loyal to Decathlon. Yeah. And who buy because it's a product that's in Decathlon. Yeah, completely. [53:06.8] So you have to be careful about that. What we do, is fairly standard. That is to say you've got your flyer with QR codes in the product and you try to onboard people, extended warranty, that sort of thing. The reality is that we get 3% of customers who scan. [53:23.4] 3%, On products like ours which are incredibly simple, where you paid 30 quid, if you have the slightest problem, you're not going to bother, people won't bother claiming the warranty. Well, that's it, and, and that's part of it, but there are brands, I'll carry on with food supplements, brands I've studied quite a bit, where you've got amazing onboarding because, because actually, you've got an L-- you've got a huge LTV. [53:47.7] Because when you're, when you're, when you've also got a bit of an emotional attachment with those brands. Yeah. And so, there, you've, you've got a real issue there. But we try. Yeah. We try, but it's difficult. Yeah. It's honestly difficult. Plus, since you don't have much repeat purchase to begin with, it's true there's less at stake there too. [54:03.7] Much less. Yeah. much less, but, but we still do it. Yeah. We still do it because you see, it means something. I mean, there, we're going to do the launch. We're starting with a base of 100,000 people. If we'd started with a base of 500,000, your launch isn't the same. Yeah, that's clear. It's not the same. [54:18.9] And you see, on, we've sold more than a million products with Shapeheart. And and in the end, you see, we don't even have 10% of emails. And on top of that, among the emails, plenty of them are non-customers. Yeah. And there you go. So That's the game, that's how it is. But but that's why you still need to do it. [54:34.6] Yeah, for sure. You still need to do it. After that, yes, they're not our customers, they're not our customers. But still... When you spend, you do 60% of your acquisition on Meta, are those your customers Yeah, you've got an email, but you see, I mean, ultimately, we pay rent at every level. So That's it. [54:50.8] We do what we can, we do our best. It's unfortunately, it's, we're OK with these rules of the game, you know. Yeah, that's clear. That's clear. Yeah. OK. Cool. And so you were just talking about it, it's true that the retail, wholesale dimension for you, is still hugely, hugely important. [55:08.7] Yeah. When did that come into the story of, of Shapeheart That's the first thing. Day one. OK. For me, I came from that world. So naturally, that creates a bias. But- But so I'd known in the past the power of physical shops. [55:27.4] And then, above all, we were launching, already, this was 2017, and we were launching running, cycling products where the distribution network is still colossal. Yeah. Cycling, the number of, you see, cycling in France or even running, you know, you've got specialist shops, but you've got all the sports shops, between Decathlon, Intersport, Sport 2000, there was Go Sport back then. [55:51.7] Yeah. you see, that's thousands of shops that were potentially interested in our products. Yeah. It was a no-brainer to go straight to them, you know. Yeah. That's Clearly. So yeah, honestly, from the start. Day one, we said to ourselves, and you see, we designed our packaging for shops right from the start. [56:08.4] Yeah. And that changes, yeah, so, that changes loads of things in the way, of managing things too. You were saying earlier that there are ranges specifically for shops. So, that's almost like having two different companies. Yeah, well, that's, that's the, that's the switch we're making right now, where there, we're really going to isolate. [56:23.7] Yeah. And indeed, it's, it's not easy. It's not easy. You have to, have to make good trade-offs. You have to But, but I think that shops have a power that means that, already, when you're in shops, for me, you're a real brand. [56:39.8] Yeah. That doesn't mean you're not a real brand if you're not there. But but you don't have, you don't have many products where you're in shops and it's a shoddy brand. That's not true. As soon as you're in shops, that means behind that, you've still got a whole structure, you've still got things in place. So I think that gives another dimension to a brand. [56:58.2] And then it can scale. Actually, everyone talks about scaling online. We sell in 25 countries. I'm sorry but to scale my Meta ads in Germany, in Spain, in Italy, in the Czech Republic, I'm sorry it's not just translation on Hejane or Xfield Yeah. [57:14.4] That's wrong. That, that doesn't work. You have to localise, you have to change the content, you have to change the models, you have to... The usage isn't necessarily the same. I haven't got a single one of my top motorbike ads that performed in Germany, you know. Yeah, OK. Because the usage isn't the same at all. Yeah, yeah. So, I think the idea that yeah, we can scale abroad, that, that's no more true than in wholesale. [57:40.5] It's... No. Yeah. That's a dimension we often forget, I find. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And, um, I was wondering, so, in terms of pricing. Yeah. Because, that's, that's a real, real subject too, I think, so. Yes. Price consistency, ultimately, is it the same prices everywhere That's the same prices everywhere. [57:58.2] Yeah, OK. That's the same prices everywhere. You can't If you sell cheaper on Amazon, you get slammed. Yeah. Because Everyone's going to go and see you. The, the, yeah, and then you cannibalise your site and then the shops, they're going to complain. Yeah, yeah. You tell me to sell at 30, and you're selling at 25. No, that doesn't work, you know. [58:17.2] So that's a first point. If you sell more expensively on Amazon than everywhere else, you can do that. Some do it to absorb part of the fees. [58:29.8] The problem is that if the gap starts becoming too significant, Amazon removes your buy box. Yeah. Uncompetitive price, we won't display your offer. Yeah, wow. Yeah. So, so that becomes harder and harder. It's getting harder and harder, but no, no, prices, for us, the aim is the same price everywhere. [58:46.2] Yeah, OK. And there you go, that's, that's the simplest. Especially since, on top of that, on prices in Europe, it's still a very touchy subject. And then, from time to time, you've got shops that undercut prices. Either way, you can't say anything. Yeah, yeah. You can't say anything, you put up with it, you put up with it. Are there agreements though, for- You're not allowed to. [59:02.8] Safeguards No, that's forbidden. No, no, in, in Europe, either way, prices are free. So, you, you can't even contact a distributor, a reseller and say "But you're doing something crazy" Yeah. You can't do anything. Yeah, that's it. No, you mustn't do that. No, it's, it's illegal to do that, yeah. [59:18.9] Yeah, OK. So we're a small brand, we're, we're not too affected by that, you see. Yeah. Me, that, that happens to me, you know, a customer calls me saying "Yes, but look at so-and-so, it's on promotion, whatever" I'm sorry, but there's nothing I can do for you, you know. That's-- and well, there you go, we're a small brand, so we don't represent colossal revenue for the reseller. [59:37.9] So he says, he grumbles, but he can understand. Yeah, of course. There you go, it's But on Amazon, it's a very delicate subject. Which is very, very delicate to manage. It's the most delicate subject. And that's why you've also got brands that get roughed up on Amazon too, because notably, you've got a lot of brands that are in pharmacies. [59:55.7] Pharmacy, that's a, that's a, that's a vertical where prices are slashed all the time. OK, yeah. And so, on Amazon, that creates a lot of problems. Yeah, yeah, I understand. So you see, there are still, there are sectors where it's complicated Yeah, it's true that it changes depending on the sector too. Yeah. And maybe a word on international before, before we wrap up. [60:13.3] Could you quickly explain to us why international What did you start with What are your main learnings on that You were saying Germany was... Yeah, I find international is hard. Generally speaking, everyone says yeah... No, it's hard. [60:28.6] Honestly, it's hard. So you see, we manage to do, we manage to do 50% of revenue outside France, but, OK ...it's much less profitable. Much less profitable. And, where-- for us, our vision on international, is going to be to say, "It's good to test with Amazon." [60:48.5] If it takes off, that means you've got a market. If you manage to sell on Amazon with people who don't know you, that means the-, that means there's a market. And so it's more about using Amazon as a showcase- ...to be able to accelerate afterwards in shops, saying "Look, we're sold on Amazon, the ratings are good, it's working." [61:05.3] Why wouldn't you manage to sell it Well... Clearly. So, so that, that's something that can work. But you see, if we carry on with the example of Germany, the problem with Germany, is that, in our case, is, they do very little door-to-door. They, they don't go and visit physical shops, they do a lot by email. [61:23.4] OK. We've got a pro-- we've got a product that you need to touch, you need to test, you see, the strength of the magnet, of... Well yeah. And so it's not very compatible. Yeah, OK. And actually, we tested it right at the start of Shapeheart. For a while, we had someone who was there in person, on the ground. We had crazy scores. Yeah, OK. And so we thought "Well, this is going to be great, we'll be able to..." [61:39.4] And actually, the guy set up his own company and there you go. Yeah, yeah, that's a shame, but... And the guy had a great network, it was great. OK. But anyway, there you go, on that, we, I think, we calmed down a bit on international. So there, we're going to launch the new range, with our international distributors. [61:57.3] Yeah. And then we'll go country by country, little by little, because, because it's hard, you know. Yeah. You can't do everything and actually it takes cash. Yeah. It, it uses up a lot of cash. It's hard to be profitable day one abroad. So, so that, that's a bit what we're doing right now, is slowing down abroad. [62:16.2] OK. It's not a big deal, we disappear a bit from the radar, but we're preparing the ground, we'll do it a bit better. Yeah, OK. But honestly, I haven't... That's, that's more observations. I don't claim to give lessons on going abroad. We haven't managed to crack it yet. It's, it's hard. [62:32.9] It's hard. And so, if you start by being distributed there versus going there yourself, does that let you test the market a bit already, see, create some awareness too Yeah, plus we've got products, we know it works. We know it works. We saw it with Decathlon, they sell for us in Romania, in the Czech Republic. We've never set foot there. [62:49.1] Well yeah. And we get scores that are nice. So, that's the approach we're going to try, doing it that way round. And, and once you've got a base of maybe 50, 100, 200 points of sale, then, you can come in with, with, with online. [63:05.7] And consumers, on top of that, they feel confident. Yeah. Saying "Well, it's sold at so-and-so, at so-and-so, at so-and-so." Well, maybe there's a reason, you know. Yeah, that's clear. That's clear. And, OK, one last question, to understand a bit your whole vision for Shapeheart over the next few months, the next few years. [63:21.0] How do you Well, the aim, for us, you see, the first ceiling, we hit it around 4 million. Yeah. And that's why we're making all the changes we've made. So we've changed ERP, logistics operations, financing, accounting firm, of... Yeah. [63:36.1] We've, there, we've changed everything at the start of 2026. OK. We're in the process, that's it, of, of, of getting all our dashboards back, all, the whole steer-- the whole management is becoming very structured. OK. And so we've got the whole new product range coming, which will officially launch in January 27. [63:53.1] And the aim is to have an average basket that's up more than 50%, even a bit more, to have repeat purchase and to have an offer that fits a bit more with certain markets, notably, the motorbike market, which we've served a bit less well with the current range. And, and the aim is to, to double, over the next three years, even a bit more. [64:13.5] We'd like to hit 10 million by 2029. Great. So, very honestly, we're going a-- I mean you see, but on financing, on-- we're, we're not starting from zero because we've got all the learning, but really, we're, redoing a lot of things from scratch. [64:31.5] And, and the aim is to break that glass ceiling because otherwise, actually, we... There, it stabilises, but if you stabilise, eventually it goes back down. And it's been 8, 9 years we've had the same products. So it's really, there, we're making big bets. We're making very big bets and yeah, in, let's say in 12, 18 months, we'll know if, if we made the right move and if it's good, it'll take off and we'll go and get the 8, 10 million and there won't be a problem. [64:59.1] And if we haven't made the right move, well, we won't be in a good place. But well, that's the game, that's the game. It's, it's been 10 years we've been running the company, we've done plenty of good things. We're a very lean company. And there, we can see it, margins are eroding, everything's... [65:14.7] everything's harder. There's no more acquisition business on products at 30 quid like there was still 3, 4 years ago. Well, we-- Yeah, the context is changing, we have to change with it. Yeah. It's... There are moments where it's really exciting, it's great. Well especially when you're in physical products, you've got new products coming, you test, you meet people, it's... [65:32.3] Yeah. It's-- And then we get really great feedback, so we know the product, it's, it's brilliant. Yeah. After that, there are moments when you say "But why are we doing this Why are we starting from zero Why are we putting ourselves through this" And above all, we've still got big stakes. You see, we've reinvested a lot financially in the company. [65:48.7] Yeah, it'll have to, it'll have to deliver Yeah, yeah. So it's, We're focused. We're focused right now on, the, the next 18 months, that's going to be a bit where we'll see the, the trend. Brilliant. On the other hand, if it works, it's, it's very, very cool. Yeah. Definitely. [66:03.8] Can you tell us more about the new range that you, you- Yeah, yeah, of course. Actually, the, the principle now, is that we put our phone in a pouch. Yeah. And it's the pouch that we magnetised. So the pouch is great because it's universal. With two sizes, you cover every phone on the market, it protects from the rain, there you go. [66:20.1] Except that pouches in the south of France, in Spain, in Italy, in Asia, in the US, they don't really care. And, and above all, the whole segment of, iPhone and Samsung Galaxy customers, so, the premium customers, they don't want a pouch, they want a case that's dedicated to their phone. [66:39.1] OK. And we, we can't reach that market and that's the Anglo-Saxon markets. OK. So it's a bit annoying. Yeah. And so there, actually, we're integrating our magnetic systems into phone cases. Brilliant. And, what we've managed to do, is have a case that's, completely, I won't find the word in French, but it's "seamless" It's really, you can't see-- yeah, you can't see there are magnets inside the case. [67:01.6] Yeah. And that lets you have a sort of MagSafe on steroids- OK. that does wireless charging, that attaches magnetically to all our mounts- ...but that will also attach to your fridge, that will attach-- so you've got loads of everyday uses. Excellent. [67:17.0] And that opens up loads of uses for us. And the big difference is that, once you've got all the mounts, if you change phones- you're going to want to keep the brand's case. Yeah. And once you've got the case, you're going to have loads of mounts, bike, motorbike, scooter, car, home, office. OK. [67:33.4] And that, took us more than a year and a half to develop the products. Yeah. Because magnets, people don't realise, it's something that sounds really simple. But in production, it's a nightmare. Yeah, that's true. It's a nightmare. First off, you need the right tooling and all that. And then, actually, each thickness, whether it's the magnet, the silicone on top, whatever you like. [67:50.4] Every, but every tenth of a millimetre changes the strength of the magnets. Yeah, right And it's a bit, so we've got expertise in that now. And so there you go. So there, we're in the process of-- you see, there, I'm starting my roadshow with all the international distributors. There, I've already started, right through to the end of the year. [68:06.0] And then January, we get going. January, that, that's going to start, we'll see how it takes off. But same thing, you see, on acquisition, we're starting from zero. Because- Yeah, it's a completely separate new product. Are we a phone case seller Are we selling mounts I mean. So it's really exciting and at the same time, it's really scary. [68:25.5] Yeah. Well, we really wish you all the, all the best for this- Well, thanks. This, this new chapter, anyway, of, of Shapeheart. New chapter, yeah. And and honestly, really looking forward to seeing how it turns out. Well, me too. It sounds great, anyway. Yeah, brilliant. Do go and support Shapeheart. Yeah. [68:40.5] As soon as it comes out. And you can also find you on LinkedIn. Yeah, LinkedIn's where I'm most, most active. Brilliant. Well thank you very much Michael. Thank you. Thank you very much.
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